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The Eleventh Hour graphic and show opener.

A clip from unknown movie or tv show where the cowboy in the white hat creeps into town in the dark and shoots the bad guys. Lipsyte narrates about "The Man in the White Hat" - referring to the color of the cowboy hat stereo-typically worn by the hero who rides into town to save the day (in old Western movies). Old time Western hero.

INTERVIEW
Rudy Giuliani 3:19
I certainly think the second part is is true in New York is out of control. In so many different respects, crime is one of them, but the conditions of the streets, the homelessness problems, the lack of affordable housing, the school system deteriorating, I don't think it's unfair to say that things have gotten out of control. And we need to restore some sense of order and, and logic and common sense to the things that we do.
Robert Lipsyte 3:43
Are you comfortable with the image of yourself as the man with the star and the white hat?
Rudy Giuliani 3:48
No, not really. I don't I don't see myself that way. How do you see yourself effective, effective administrator with a lot of good ideas and ideals for the city and love for the city? I was in law enforcement for a long time, and I have some very strong views about it. So maybe in that sense, it's not unfair for people to see me that way. But I don't see myself that way.

B&W photo stills former Mayoral candidate, 1881 William Grace. B&W satirical photo/article "the bosses...", photo Seth Low from Columbia College early 1900's.

B&W photo stills circa 1965 John V. Lindsay standing amidst crowd at rally for Mayor. People holding signs "John V. Lindsay for Mayor" "Got a Gripe about New York? Phone the John Lindsay grape-line; taking the oath of office, smiling in the midst of a giant crowd.

INTERVIEW CONTINUES:

Rudy Giuliani 5:45
Sure, absolutely. LaGuardia was a mayor who was able to reach beyond party labels reach beyond narrow ideological boundaries and put together a fusion movement, which is what we have to do today we have, we have to appeal to the people that are excluded and bring them in, in order to break up the dominance of a single party that has become negligent and to some extent corrupt.

Robert Lipsyte 6:07
The difference is that Fiorello LaGuardia was seen as a warm, wet, compassionate man. And of course, your image as this is the prosecuting Angel. Someone who sees crime as sin is something quite different, isn't it?

Rudy Giuliani 6:22
I guess I'm sure everybody has different careers, and you come to your positions in life in a different way. And I don't I don't pretend to be LaGuardia, or Lindsay or anyone else. I myself. I have my own assets and liabilities. But I think I can bring an awful lot to the job. In particular, my background in law enforcement made the greatest problems New York has today our crime and drugs. I'm in a position where I know the most about those problems and can make the most progress

Robert Lipsyte 6:46
those your assets, what exactly would you do?

Rudy Giuliani 6:49
Well, I would attack it from the point of view of the drug problem. And from the day I became mayor, I would change the rules on the drug dealers. I've been fighting this thing for 20 years, and I have a really good sense of what affects them and what has to be done.

Robert Lipsyte 7:01
what has to be done.

Rudy Giuliani 7:02
Well, first of all, you've got to make certain that they go off to prison, you can't have them back out on the street, six, seven times out of 10. After they get arrested. The criminal justice system in New York operates as a processing center for criminals. We find them we tagged them, we give them a record, and then we put them back out on the streets. that's a that's a counterproductive way to be using it. And if you understand the system, you don't dramatically increase police officers and police arrests without also increasing the courts, the probation departments, the prisons, so that you're not creating more chaos. What happened last year is that we created more chaos. When I was in the justice,

Robert Lipsyte 7:38
you're speaking specifically of the tactical narcotics task force that arrested a lot of people

Rudy Giuliani 7:44
more than that, if you look at the history of the mayor over the last two or three years, we've had increases in the police department dramatic, then plans to decrease the police department that increases then decreases again, and that increases. And now he's talking about another dramatic decrease at a time of great fear of crime. That's That's what I mean by a city out of control that isn't being managed. There are no long term plans. And there's no real understanding

Robert Lipsyte 8:06
Well, specifically in terms of increases and decreases please, you would put more police, you would hire more police you would put more police on the street

Rudy Giuliani 8:15
There are a couple of things that you have to do you have to understand the system. So if you're going to increase police officers, particularly those who are going to go out and make arrests as the TNT program was designed to do you have to at the same time calculate how many arrests will they make, and you have to increase the whole system. I did that in the Justice Department in 19. In 1983, rather than just increasing the number of FBI agents and DEA agents, we increase the whole system commensurate with the number of new agents we were putting out there to arrest people so that we didn't create chaos. So that's one of the things that you'd have to do. If your prisons are overcrowded, then maybe you have to think about and I think there's other good reasons for this. Using police officers for patrol more often. Police officers being used for patrol prevent crime. So now you're not you're not creating more candidates for prison. When Ben Ward did that on the Lower East Side in 1984. He put 250 additional police officers down there the rates of crimes dropped dramatically 20, 30 40% less muggings, burglaries, robberies

Robert Lipsyte 9:13
in that neighborhood that neighborhood and and push those criminals into other neighborhoods that were rate went up.

Rudy Giuliani 9:19
What What happened was you got an incremental decrease, even in those other neighborhoods. Yes, some moved. Others were discouraged. So you actually saw a drop in even in the surrounding neighborhoods, although some of that phenomenon did occur.

INTERVIEW CONTINUES:

Rudy Giuliani 13:30
The young fellow in New Jersey, that's buying drugs is more of our problem than Noriega really want. It's more, it's more of our problem. First of all, because it's within our own country, it's the thing we have the most control over, we do not. We have limited ability to affect foreign countries by the very nature of world politics. And we should do a lot more about that. And I think we should be a lot tougher, and anything we want to do to Noriega, I will applaud and help with. However, from the point of view of First things first and what we can affect, it's that demand for drugs in the United States that's killing us. And it is creating the world problem. Americans spend $150 billion a year on dangerous drugs. And that is the core of our crime problem in New York, maybe 50, 60 70% of the crime problem is driven by the drug problem, you have to reduce the demand for drugs. If If we eliminated Noriega if we turned around Colombia, but we still still spent $150 billion a year on drugs. They'd be a new Noriega and a new Colombia within a few hours to grab a piece of that American market. So you have got to affect the demand for drugs. That means education programs that are five times more comprehensive than we have today, in schools, on television, on radio, using our best techniques to convince youngsters not to use drugs. The optimistic part of that is when where we do those programs they work. They drop rates of usage of marijuana and alcohol for youngsters down by 30 40% with strong comprehensive programs that begin at five and six years old. In New York, we don't begin to move five and six, we wait until it's too late. We have to treat addicts. In New York, we do not treat all of the addicts that ask for treatment, because we don't put enough money into it, we have to reallocate our resources and put money into it. And we'll save money, because we're dealing with those addicts in prison. Now at two and three times the cost, I believe, we have to also focus some attention on the discretionary purchaser of cocaine, the person who is not an addict, but is buying cocaine in New York, because they want to have fun, because it's part of their lifestyle, because they think they think there's nothing wrong with it, it happens to be a misdemeanor. And it should be enforced. And we should give people warning, because there has been a different attitude about it. What I would do as mayor is tell people, that at a certain time, the rules were going to change, and possibly right at the very beginning, the rules were going to change. And if you buy cocaine in New York City, you have to take the risk that you may get arrested, and there will be penalties that follow from that. And I would devote a small proportion of the law enforcement resources to focus on that the large proportion has to focus on the drug dealers. And that's where we have to have the prisons, and we have to have the jails to make certain we can follow through on our rest of them. And so in terms of addicts, they should be treated.

Robert Lipsyte 16:14
And there seems to be a real difference in terms of people taking the marketplace of drugs between the kids were buying crack uptown, and the discretionary purchases of cocaine, some of the people that you've played with on Wall Street,

Rudy Giuliani 16:29
there are some differences. And there's some similarities. A couple of years ago, when the crack problem began in Washington Heights, we have the federal government engaged in in a joint program with a New York City Police Department, and we began arresting not only the people who was selling crack, but we would do surveillance, and we would wait for 5,6,7 or eight cars to come in, buy crack, and then we would arrest both the purchaser and the seller. Particularly since they were driving automobiles, they were exceedingly dangerous. Some of these people would buy crack, use it and then drive back to New Jersey or Connecticut or whatever you would find. If you studied those statistics, that a significant number of those people buying crack were not addicts. They're going to become addicts. But they're not addicts right now. And a significant number were addicts. So it's not it's a mixed it's a mixed picture. The non addict purchaser, however, is adding billions and billions of dollars to this to this problem. A couple of this was over a month ago now. But a DEA agent Hatcher was assassinated in Staten Island. And within a day or two, his wife said that she blamed his assassination on the people who buy drugs in America. And I thought that was that was correct. Many of the people don't realize it. But they have to be made to realize

Robert Lipsyte 17:41
You know that drugs are only part of the problem of crime in the city. Also, drugs did not seem to be part of the so called Wilding incident in Central Park, nor part of the insider trading scandals.

Rudy Giuliani 17:55
Drugs are only a part of the problem. They're, they're a big part of it, because they drive maybe 50 to 70% of the violent crimes that create fear. The problem of white collar crime, political corruption is equally as important. And it's a little hard for people to understand this because it's more abstract. But in a society in which the richest and most powerful people are seen to be violating the law with impunity, it is very hard to get the least powerful people to to obey the law in their in their own sphere. And when people sense it and feel it, and nothing is being done about it. It really unhinges their respect for for the law. And in the long run. If we're going to turn this around, we have to create respect for law and an application of that law to everyone on it on at least a roughly equal basis.

Robert Lipsyte 18:41
There is, of course, a sense that there is a lack of respect for law. What you talked about the city is at a control. Do you have any thoughts about how it happened?

INTERVIEW CONTINUES:

Rudy Giuliani 18:50
It's It's been a long process really, over the last 12,13 years. We're talking about violent crime, the big increases occurred in the late 70s, based on the FBI reports. If you look, look at it on a chart, you see that chart kind of going out of control. In the late 70s, early 80s, it kind of dipped again. And now we're out of we're out of control. Again,

Robert Lipsyte 19:12
Do you think that there are social conditions, do you think some some hinge of morality loosen that the people have changed,

Rudy Giuliani 19:20
that we we moved away from a society that put heavy emphasis on on civic virtue and standards? And now I'm not talking about in any way personal morality or personal choices that people make to think there's a connection? Sometimes Yes, and sometimes No, but the proper role of government is in the area of civic virtue. And a lot of those other things are things that families have to decide and individuals have to decide. But the emphasis on input, for example, within the educational system, training young people to be citizens, used to be what I remembered, when I was when I was young. We were being trained to be citizens of our country of our city of our state. For a long time the education drifted. And the theory of education was to make you everything you could be, reach inside yourself have every experience that you want. It wasn't getting connected to how do you fit into society what your contribution has to be? I'd like to see those that emphasis restored at the earliest stages of public education where you teach civic virtue, and you teach the responsibilities that you have, they go along with the liberties that you have, and that you don't and one, one is absolutely connected to the other.

Robert Lipsyte 20:32
In terms of that connection, do you think that there is any connection between the so called Wilding in Central Park, and the corruption in City Hall and the insider trading on Wall Street? is there is there a thread

Rudy Giuliani 20:49
there's an abstract connection between them, it's not No, there's no direct connection. And there's a connection between the wilding that goes on now and the peer pressure that exists, even if even if the youngsters who are involved in a particular incident running around doing harm to people, even if they are not themselves involved with drugs, many of the appears are, and that's the, that's the subculture that we're dealing with. They're also involved in a situation where day in and day out, they hear about and learn about individuals in political political positions of power, or very, very, very powerful economically, who are committing all sorts of crimes taking advantage of other people. So they get a sense that, you know, if they can do it, and get away with it, I can do it also. You can't. In a society like ours in a democracy, where we learn, we learn from the law, and for and from and from each other. You can't separate the two things. It is very abstract, it's not something that you could ever, absolutely show a direct connection between one and the other. But you know, it has to have an effect on youngsters, because you hear it when you talk to them, even even the ones that are that are solid citizens will talk to you about how much rich people get away with or how much powerful politicians get away with. And I always felt a sense of contribution by my office, when we could hold people who were powerful, as accountable with people who were who were poor.

Robert Lipsyte 22:10
You talked earlier about your strengths and liabilities or assets. I guess I guess everybody's strength is that their weakness too. And of course, your image as as the man who, you know, kicks ass and take names, is a powerful one, you won and lost in the courtroom. And yet, as a mayor, even as a law and order mayor, as a sheriff mayor, you're going to have to be closer to LaGuardia, you're going to have to make that transition towards compassion and compromise. Do you think you're gonna have to gear yourself differently than have to change?

Rudy Giuliani 22:46
Sure, you always have to change when you move into new challenges and new hire positions. The the role and job of being the United States Attorney is very different than being a mayor. And I've done different things in my career and you have to adapt yourself to, to the things you can do this, when I left the United States,

Robert Lipsyte 23:05
we're gonna have to find a gentler Kinder Giuliani.

Rudy Giuliani 23:08
I've always been a kind, compassionate person as the United States Attorney

Interview concludes, Lipsyte thanks Giuliani and announces next week's lineup. He announces the show and introduces himself. Show ends.

Funding for the program by announcer and overlay the Eleventh Hour graphic.