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The Eleventh Hour. Funding by charitable organizations for the program announced and overlay The Eleventh Hour graphic.

Exterior tilt down on Forbes Magazine building in New York City

The elderly Malcolm Forbes wearing a helmet and riding a motorcycle down the (interior) hall of office building.

Algerians in native costumes and robes, lined up, playing tambourines, bells, clapping

Zoom in on Malcolm Forbes with Elizabeth Taylor surrounded by folks at a Forbes party at the Kasbah in Algeria

var shots Malcolm Forbes at round table with other guests, standing with celebrities including Elizabeth Taylor at party

B&W footage, 1957, Malcolm Forbes at his home during his campaign for Governor of New Jersey, introduces his ("campaign aides") his two small children and wife.

B&W still photo Malcolm Forbes, Sr.

Forbes private corporate jet. "Forbes' Capitalist Tool" written on tail

Close up Malcolm Forbes sitting on the set of The Eleventh Hour

Host Lipsyte reaches over and hands Forbes his recent book, "More Than
Dreamed, A Lifetime of Collections". Forbes holds the book up. Close up on book.

INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
Malcolm Forbes:
Probably if I hadn't had the birthday party, you wouldn't be having me on here to talk about my book.

Robert Lipsyte:
I'm sorry, I know you do want to talk about your book because you are the ultimate salesman. And let's let's talk about this. This is a book about your collections, the Faberge eggs,

Malcolm Forbes:
it's really sort of an autobiography, and we just it's just come out and to help pay for the birthday party. I want everybody listening to you to run out and buy a copy.

Robert Lipsyte:
Not until the show is over, please

Malcolm Forbes 08:45
It's a pictorial autobiography.

Robert Lipsyte:
It's interesting that you call it an autobiography because although they're wonderful pictures of your childhood and your kids growing up, you know, there are no great secrets of Malcolm Forbes life

Malcolm Forbes:
Did you read it?

Malcolm Forbes:
there's a lot about my life.

Robert Lipsyte :
In a sense, But what I found most interesting was the beautiful things that you've acquired in your in your life. You remember that old t shirt, he who dies with the most toys wins. And in a sense that evoked something that evoke that in

Malcolm Forbes:
I suppose it does because it does deal with the assorted collections, most of which didn't set out to be. But all these collections are on display in the first floor of Forbes magazine building open to the public for nothing. The Faberge eggs, the Faberge collection, worth lots of money, the Presidential papers, the note where Lee asks for terms that Appomattox to General Grant, all kinds of extraordinary historical documents. The letter where Einstein writes Franklin Roosevelt proposing what became the atom bomb.

Robert Lipsyte:
The stuff is fascinating to me, Malcolm, let me interrupt you. Because I think that you're greater than the sum of your acquisitions in the sense that you know, Scottish forebears, you grew up with values and standards, you gave your kids values and standards, your discipline, you're hard working. And it's not just putting things together, you're disciplined and hard working in this age of greed in which we have the sense that there are a lot of people who aren't, who don't have social responsibility, Exxon leaves New York for Dallas. There are takeovers. Is there something happening out there that we need to know about in American business.

Malcolm Forbes:
No, I, business always has to be changing and on the on the move. If they don't change if the product mix doesn't change. They have their ups and downs. It's the the ability, the flexibility of our economic system where a Steve Jobs can have an idea and a basement and emerge with a major software and hardware, high tech computer company that has impact all over the world. This is the kind of dynamics that require the flexibility to move. But Exxon is moving from New York. It's too bad for New York, but taxes and problems in New York, and they have property in Texas, where the the rents have gone way down, because the oil business is way down. Exxon's prosperity is way down, quite aside from the spill, they've got to pull in their horns. They can't afford the prestige of being in the Exxon building which is their world headquarters in the biggest city in the world. They have to pull in their horns, they have to go back to Texas and be headquartered because they have come down from a pinnacle where oil prices had them before you got to be you don't stay in business if you don't stay alert to how you parse the bottom line when the going gets tough

Robert Lipsyte :
You really turned that around. I now think of Exxon with its tail between its legs.

Malcolm Forbes:
No not it's tail between its legs, but Its profits down around its feet.

Robert Lipsyte:
Yeah. Well, is there a level of social responsibility?

Malcolm Forbes :
Of course, but is it irresponsible for a company to stay in business, if they have to cut expenses to do it? There are 10s of 1000s of people still working for Exxon. And my guess is that almost all those who were working in New York were offered their jobs in Texas, but many don't find it possible to move. But the savings are important for a company to stay solvent

Robert Lipsyte:
How would you measure say the needs of Exxon and the needs of New York to keep a company with that prestige the idea that that's kind of a public moment to lose a company like that.

Malcolm Forbes:
Well, it is indeed, but New York has attracted a lot of new businesses. This is still the major headquarters. Every city has its ups and downs. How would you like to be a community like many are dependent on one particular industry? Look what happened to Detroit, when the automobile business had to retool re-gear and ended up making as many cars with 1/3 the people that it did before. Tthis dynamic quality has a downside as well as an upside. But the basic point is if the economy has flexibility, you can't rule that a company must never leave a city because it'll discombobulate a lot of people then companies die that way.

Robert Lipsyte:
You made the case for Exxon now make the case for New York. Let me put you on the other side and make the case for New York. What would you have to do to keep a company like that to make a city like this attractive and health?

Malcolm Forbes:
Well, you'd have to be sure that the oil industry hadn't had a nosedive in its prices. You can't blame the city of New York in many respects. It isn't simply that there's a high tax rate here. You think of the miracle of this city. Seriously, here are these huge skyscrapers grow up around us every day. 1000s of people come into a place that none were working there before. The City functions is the Marvel in terms of water, electricity, heat, transportation. There are harassments, but the city it isn't the city's fault. When many companies move out, they move because they think it'll be less expensive. But a lot of people it's harder to get people to work in a rural area. But in Texas, there are cities, there's high unemployment, real estate is going for a low price. So there were reasons that are not New York City's fault.

Robert Lipsyte:
What are New York City's faults. The billion dollar, the prospective billion dollar deficit next year, is that New York City's fault?

Malcolm Forbes:
No, the demands and needs of services here, the conscience of a city, the need for safety and security. But the pros of New York are the other total cultural spectrum available here that appeals to people. a lifestyle. The the fact that everybody else in certain businesses are here. If you're in publishing, you should be in New York because the agencies mostly are here or Chicago, Los Angeles. In other words, the city has to work and it does work. You can't blame the city for certain industries' rise and fall Wall Street's problems. They're cut back on people, for a while they were the fastest growing employer. But these things change. And New York is not at fault for the loss of some of the businesses here. Sure their tax rates are higher. But so are the many of the plusses of this city.

Robert Lipsyte:
What's the relationship between these companies coming and going for their profit bottom lines, and the homeless people you passed on the street coming over here and by the crack and the overcrowded hospitals and the educational system?

Malcolm Forbes:
These are our problems that that inner city problems in terms of education, which relate to crack. The jobs, now all around the peripheries of New York, you see in windows of shops, and so forth. They can't get enough help. But people in the inner city who need the jobs, they don't have the transportation to get to where those particular jobs are. They they're there, where they live isn't convenient, where the jobs are, we haven't solved the problems. I don't mean any city has solved its problems. But the solution isn't to try to make companies for whom it is no longer economically possible to stay in New York, to stay in New York. You can't make it when you start shackling free enterprise, so it can't stay solvent, then you really have a problem on your hands, as the Iron Curtain countries can testify. When governments start making rules about everything, the economy ceases to function. It's a mix and New York City it has been gaining ratables, certain taxes will have to go up to meet some of the needs on crack and so forth. So it's kind of a it's a it's a mix.

Robert Lipsyte:
You have this kind of fix on it. Do you ever regret after you've got beat 1957? While you were a state senator, you did win that, you ever regret that you didn't give it another shot that you didn't go into politics and get your hands really dirty with these problems?

Malcolm Forbes:
listen I was in it for nine years. In the State Senate and the Borough Council and so forth, I had two tries for governor one, I didn't get the nomination. And the guy who did, blew it, and then I got the nomination and the guy they were in nobody was mad at my only gripe with him was he had the job I wanted. But no at the beginning I thought sure I'll go back in when my timings better my father died, I got wrapped up and full time in the business and make it grow. Now. The the fun of explaining every issue to people in public office, what they should be doing, and being where your support is sought, instead of you continually seeking support. I couldn't ride motorcycles. I couldn't have had a birthday party that that was the talk of the world. I couldn't be up in a hot air balloon, making speeches for reelection.

Robert Lipsyte:
And perhaps you couldn't be as much of a power broker as you are now if you actually.

Malcolm Forbes:
No question because I would be spending 24 hours a day as these poor guys have to do of kissing ass and pretending to listen to people who aren't making any sense.

Robert Lipsyte:
Do you think that you have more power now in the state of New Jersey and the city of New York than you would if you actually held one of those two elective offices Mayor or governor?

Malcolm Forbes:
No, people there have power. I have no power.

Robert Lipsyte:
But you tell people what to do.

Malcolm Forbes:
Well, sure. And they don't pay any heed. So every I can recycle my suggestions, you know, because they're, they're always largely unheeded. It's just simply, it's kind of rewarding to be in a position to lecture instead of being the one constantly lectured at. My hat is off to people in in high places and public office, I used to think when people would say to me, oh, what a wonderful thing you're doing running for public office. And I thought to myself, try to keep me out of it. Well, the voters did. When you have the ambition, And the only way to stay in is to learn how to govern, which has absolutely nothing to do with running a business. businessman make punk politicians, they think it's enough to decide.

Robert Lipsyte:
These politicians always come in as saying we're going to put the state or city on a businesslike basis

Malcolm Forbes:
Sure, that's because everybody thinks that's the way to do it. But everybody who says they want a businesslike basis, they don't want things that affect them in their lives. They don't want rent free properties. They don't want an inadequate number of please, they don't want raises taxes. So you promise what's required, and nine out of 10 voters know it isn't going to happen. Probably it's just as well. Most of these political promises aren't kept

Robert Lipsyte:
these lectures that nobody's going to listen to but you're going to write in front of the magazine, one for what what's the lecture we're going to give to the new governor on November 8 of New Jersey

Malcolm Forbes:
that they regardless of which man which party, that they continue the basic programs that Governor Kaine instilled, that have led to Jersey's tremendous growth, and it's very sound tackling of a lot of problems, the problems are there. My advice would be look at what the Kane administration did to encourage and attract business, some of which came from New York. And do likewise, when you have a climate, not for ruthless corporate exploitation, but where they're welcome because of the jobs they bring. And most corporations bring good community sense. They do support local charitable efforts, local cultural things. So I would just say, continue what has been happening in the last eight years

Robert Lipsyte:
And the lecture to the new Mayor of New York on November 8,

Malcolm Forbes:
I would say to the, to the new Mayor of New York, if you can keep corruption down, you're doing a great thing. I wouldn't stop communicating. I think it's not only is a tough job, but being sure that those around you aren't dipping into the till, creating jobs, you know, exploiting their positions. And that's a full time job.

Robert Lipsyte :
You think That's the number one thing this mayor has to worry about.

Malcolm Forbes:
I think the next mayor has to has to worry about that, because you can't implement programs to have inner city aid programs if they're going to be deflected as in some school systems into patronage and so forth. But yet, it's very hard to get around that it's a key problem in law enforcement and everything else. I think the mayor leadership is what's required and guts. And I think the principal thing is, can you keep your eye on who's around you so that they don't dip in the till. Koch did a pretty good job, but look at the number of people that in effect, betrayed their office, and here was the guy that wasn't making a nickel at it. And I think that either one of the candidates can pull it off if they are ever vigilant.

Robert Lipsyte:
Yeah, you've called yourself an intelligent conservative. That was maybe 10 years ago. Do you still call yourself an intelligent designing?

Malcolm Forbes:
Imean, they used to say about people, oh, he's a liberal? Well, I think an intelligent conservative is one who doesn't think that being conservative means being against change, you can't block it, it doesn't mean being rigid in positions you've taken, it means having a flexibility and having a social conscience and putting the two together. It means I think you can serve by trying to cope and direct change, not trying to prevent change.

Robert Lipsyte:
A lot of people see you as one of the people who embody the American dream. And, and one of the lists of the American Dream is the 400 richest people in Forbes magazine. In looking through it the other day, I noticed that, you know, basically white faces, male white faces, and almost half of them inherited, inherited their money, and many of the rest got got a start. Does the dream still live as it once did.

Malcolm Forbes:
There are more millionaires in this country ever had before. There are more new billionaires.

Malcolm Forbes:
Almost all the billionaires are totally new. I mean, I'm in there as inherited, and I did have inherited a going business. It may be 20 40 times larger than it was then. But so's the economy. Many of these people down as inherited means they inherited the opportunity to get in the act. And very few of them are coupon clippers. And if you're not good at it. Getting losing your money is very easy. As people in the entertainment business can tell you. Putting your money to work so that multiplies so that you invest wisely and things that grow so that you spark growth with your money isn't easy, but you have a heck of a head start. I think you'll find that most of what's listed as inherited is in many instances, much more than it was when they began because they put their money in their brain to work. But the big thing is, in Europe, for instance, you don't get the flexibility. You don't have overnight new wealthy people. When you consider that in our rich list, from 12 to 18% of them change every year, not because they die, some of them lay eggs, and not the kind that Faberge made. There's flexibility again, it's the core of the system and the number of new people each year, and the number is the same in this country, they literally are more and more people succeeding in more and more new lines of business.

MALCOLM FORBES 1919-1990.

Robert Lipsyte 25:20
Malcolm Forbes, a star and a cheerleader of the American dream. That's the 11th hour.

Credits run over clip of Forbes building at night.

reel end