19711970S TELEVISION SHOWS
WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A HOMOSEXUAL: 4 WHO ARE & 4 WHO WERE
THE HOMOSEXUALS: MARC RUBIN, GREGORY BATTCOCK, GEORGE CALDWELL, RANDOLFE HAYDEN WICKER
THE HETEROSEXUALS: TED VAN GRIETHUYSEN, SHELDON KRANZ, ROY HARRIS, TOM SHIELDS
(HF-YTV, DECEMBER 2018)
THE HOMOSEXUALS: MARC RUBIN, GREGORY BATTCOCK, GEORGE CALDWELL, RANDOLFE HAYDEN WICKER
THE HETEROSEXUALS: TED VAN GRIETHUYSEN, SHELDON KRANZ, ROY HARRIS, TOM SHIELDS
(HF-YTV, DECEMBER 2018)
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David Susskind alone in studio introduces episode. The subject is Homosexuality. He will be joined by 8 guests - 4 who are homosexuals and 4 who are previous homosexuals who have converted to heterosexuality.
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Susskind in studio with guests. Susskind and guests are seated close together on a 3 level stage. Most of the guests are smoking cigarettes during the interview.
INTERVIEW BEGINS: David Susskind We're going to talk about homosexuals tonight. Our guests are for homosexuals and for men formerly homosexuals who have become heterosexuals. first guest Managing Editor of Stein of a publishing company George Caldwell has been a homosexual since the age of 19. Mr. Caldwell is currently editing a book titled The gay militants, a psychology major and college, Randolfe Hayden wicker has been active in the Manichean, society and other homosexual organizations. He has written extensively on the subject for many national publications, knowing he was a homosexual, Mark Rubin married when he was 21 and has a child now divorced and a militant homosexual. Mr. Rubin is a public school teacher, art critic and university lecturer, Gregory Battcock realized and accepted his homosexuality at an early age, and he has made no attempt to change. Ted shields teaches at the University of Rhode Island three years ago, Mr. shields made a transition to heterosexuality and he is now engaged to be married. A former editor for a publishing company. Sheldon Kranz is now writing a book describing how he changed from a homosexual to heterosexual through the study of aesthetic realism. Roy Harris is an actor and he is 25 years old homosexual until three years ago, Mr. Harris is married and has an infant son, Ted van Griethuysen is an actor and a director. And he's been married for eight years. Mr. Van Griethuysen is currently co authoring a book with Sheldon Kranz about his change to heterosexuality. I want to begin by asking you this this program couldn't be done five years ago? Why Is it possible to do it today? Is it because there are now so many homosexuals numerically? Or is it because our whole attitude about homosexuality has changed? Marc Rubin I think the change has come about because a revolution is made by doing it. And homosexuals, particularly have been doing their thing have been more public, have been demanding and acceptance of their lifestyle, not a tolerance because tolerance is an evil word, but an acceptance, the right to be themselves. They've been doing it and they've been doing it publicly. They've been demanding public political action. And this is I think, why it can happen now. David Susskind And the public now has a new acceptance of homosexuality. Marc Rubin David, a year ago, a year ago, I wouldn't have been here. My head had a change before I could come here. And so homosexuals have changed. And that's why we can have the program now. Gregory Battcock I think the rigid delineations between them kept people from people in all areas from integrating. This is another one of them. David Susskind Ted? Ted Van Griethuysen Yes. Well, I can give you two reasons. I partly agree withsaw what's already been said. But the four of us, for example, or three of us have endeavored to appear before it's a matter of fact, we went to the New York Times and tried to get them to write a story about our having changed in one wIay. And they wouldn't do it. They said we will not write a story that says something about change that also questions the psychiatric community, they wouldn't do it. So this is the first time outside of channel 13. We've had a chance to say their David Susskind I saw a front page story recently in the New York Times. they discussed Ted Van Griethuysen Yes, sure was. no dice. Roy Harris what they discussed was what they called. What is the term they used? David Susskind Therapy? Roy Harris No, no, there's another term that was...adjustment, right? They use the word adjustment, but in terms of aesthetic realism of personal health, I've changed but I'm not adjusted yet. I mean, adjustments are a big lie if you keep trying to do that. Randolfe Hayden Wicker The New York Times dug up the Bieber study that was nine years old rehashed it and put it on the front page as news. There was no new research whatsoever covered in that report. And I will say it was only better than the ridiculous story they did five years ago, because at the end, they mentioned Evelyn Hooker study and the division within psychiatric circles, in which some psychiatrist have proven through scientific methods that non pathological homosexualilty adjusted homosexual still exists David Susskind Three or four years ago we had a discussion of homosexuality with some doctors and the head of the manichean society and so forth. And educational stations, a couple of them got into a lot of trouble by playing the program because people wrote the state legislature in Pennsylvania in Pittsburgh and said if they're going to be homosexuals on educational television, they should have their charter. Randolfe Hayden Wicker Yeah. Well, what was your rating that night? I bet it was very good. David Susskind Well, I don't know what the rating was in Pittsburgh. It probably was good. But this fellow that wrote he was sort of a an attorney general, or a would be attorney general. He was really in a high Dudgeon about the whole thing. And it got to be a big issue in Pittsburgh. Do you think that's likely to happen this time? Ted Van Griethuysen Of course. Oh, I do. Because frankly, I mean, there were about 1964 I think that that article appeared in Life Magazine. Big one about homosexuality in America. It was terrifically important because I remember 15 years ago, for example, there was such a blue light feeling around homosexuality. I mean, you went with your poodle and your martini to a bar, you know. And it was the kind of thing you didn't talk about. Nobody talked about it. It's wonderful that it can be talked about. Absolutely wonderful. There have been more studies more what is it? People I think the Vietnam situation others have troubled the American conscience terrifically. Are we being fair to the people who live in this country fairness to people George Caldwell may I say something about the article on the front page David Susskind Its not fair because most of the audience hasn't read that article. It was an article having to do with homosexuals who made a successful adjustment focus around that George Caldwell Right I have read the Hetterer book and the Hatter book starts out with a group of statistics about that whole study 700 homosexuals he dealt with since 1953. He eliminated set 500 of them and dealt with 200, which he actually worked with now. Why eliminated the 500? I assume because he decided they couldn't change out of the 215 years later, he ends up with 10 heterosexual 10 who are still married, there were 20 who got married and 10, who got divorced. Now, none of this is put in the paper Ted Van Griethuysen and no one has seen them. these gentlemen are first David Susskind Let me ask you if you realized your ambition tonight. You're opposing camps. Have you realized your ambition? What would you like to accomplish? What would you like to have people think Marc Rubin I would want I wouldn't want the people watching the show. To know that homosexuality is a valid, positive, beautiful lifestyle, that there is nothing wrong about it. Nothing sick about it, that it has all of the glories and all of the joys that life can have in it. And that's what I would like them to know. Sheldon Kranz May I say something David Susskind yes, yes, Sheldon Kranz I feel we have an ambition to I feel having been in that what is ironically called the gay life. There must be 1000s and 1000s of men in this country who hate being homosexual, who wish that there were some logical, organized way to change. And I feel we can say there is a body of knowledge, aesthetic realism, founded and taught by Eli Siegel, that can make for this change. And I feel like people could know that I just feel it would make for hope in a way that hasn't been before. Ted Van Griethuysen If I if I could expand I could extend. I agree with what Sheldon said what our aim in a way is to get across to people to have considered simply as an idea, as we were asked to consider critically an idea. Is it possible that homosexuality, a homosexual, like anyone else in the world, is first of all, every moment of his life concerned with the whole world and how he sees it? Is that real is an appeal very simple, says that this is dogmatic. I don't know anybody who wholly agrees with it. But it's being considered that every human being because he's alive, must simply must like the external world in order to like himself to like it. He must see it aesthetically, he must see it as a oneness of opposites. That's what the study of static relations about that's how I change that. David Susskind We'll get to that I first want to understand what the life of a homosexual is in America in 1971. Is it any longer the tortured press, it created a press thing that always has been pressed? David Susskind Now it's partly what we're sick of. I mean, when people say homosexuals are sick, we're sick of being oppressed. And, you know, we have contempt for the organizations that have Press and I think the organizations that oppress us back handedly, I don't think esthetic realism thinks it's oppressing homosexuality and the rights of homosexuals. And I don't think that maybe the New York Times doesn't think it is. But the fact of the matter remains is when people deal with it, in terms David Susskind Who oppresses you? the government with its laws George Caldwell certainly government does. And when the government changed the laws, because they read in the New York Times that it's a sickness, which it isn't, then, you know, that's an oppression to just as this kind of everybody David Susskind Homosexuality is not a sickness Randolfe Hayden Wicker homosexuality could be good on lifestyle as you choose to make it. Now, it's oppressive in the sense that the government discriminate you against you. But then that's positive when you don't have to go in the army for two years. You may say it's bad that you don't have the security of children and family. But that's an advantage if you don't have the burdens of feeding them. So actually, homosexuality, as far as I'm concerned, concerned, only a valid lifestyle that has very real advantages that makes it very attractive. David Susskind What do you say back to doctors, psychiatrists, mental health associations who say that it is a sickness? It's not an aberration? No, it's a preferred lifestyle. Randolfe Hayden Wicker And not all psychiatrists say that homosexuality is a sickness. There is a genuine division David Susskind the preponderance of psychiatry Marc Rubin It is a is a preferred lifestyle. It certainly is a valid and a positive lifestyle. This is the point it is not a sickness, it is is endemic, and is part of humanity, and human nature and human life, as is heterosexuality. I'm not here, to say that people must convert or should convert from heterosexuality to homosexuality, let heterosexuals who are happy with their heterosexuality remain, so there should be no pressure on them to convert. However, I would say that there are many heterosexuals, who might perhaps be happier as homosexuals, I would also say that there are undoubtedly homosexuals who are unhappy, and who use their sexuality as an excuse for their own happiness. And so they think that if they change their sexuality, they will be happy. But that isn't going to do it. That isn't going to do it one bit. Roy Harris We agree, I agree with you, we agree with I agree with that Marc Rubin I can in terms of liking the world. But what does it mean to like the world? I can tell you that I as a homosexual, have demonstrated my liking for the world by being a poet by being a sculptor by being a teacher by working with children all my life by working, marching in peace marches by working in the civil rights movement by going down to Mississippi. By all of these things. I have demonstrated my liking my love, and my commitment to the world by loving by loving my lover by loving my friends, I have shown the world I have showed not the world I'm not out to show the world that I show myself. Randolfe Hayden Wicker There's a sickness but the sickness is anti homosexual phobia. That's rampant and heterosexual society David Susskind Hold we are coming right back to my point, Randy, I didn't mean to interrupt you we have to pause. |
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INTERVIEW RESUMES:
David Susskind I feel awkward making a brief for psychiatry, which I really, like most of them make out the case that homosexuality is an aberrated response to the dominating mother and the regressive father Marc Rubin dangle dangle Dingleberry. You know, like, what does it mean in terms of a lifestyle for years, I was a speech therapist, and my special field of interest was stuttering. There were 460,000 theories for the origin of stuttering. And every every therapist had his own theory. And what it came down to is that each stutter was a stutter because of what made him to stutter. Ted Van Griethuysen Good Good, I will address myself to that. How David Susskind How does that happen? Ted Van Griethuysen First of all, this, I would say, I'm going to go back to something aesthetic realism does not oppress homosexuality. It looks upon a person with that who says they like it with benevolent semi conviction? I would say. However, one can talk oneself about why oneself changed, which is what we're interested in doing David Susskind Before you changed? How did you become a homosexual? What would the Ted Van Griethuysen well that's part of the changes to understand how you did? It is not a sickness that is quite correct. It is not. It is not physical or mental illness as psychiatry, you apparently permanent long. I would say in terms of myself, it was wrong. That's as far as I'll go for the moment David Susskind At what age were you aware that you were Ted Van Griethuysen No it wasn't a sickness. I see. I objected to that violently. I went to psychiatrists. I did. I did not like that way of seeing me. I thought I'm not a toad to be looked at simply as a homosexual. I'm a person first of all, and psychiatry did not look at me that way. Aesthetic realism did. David Susskind What was that psychiatry because they look at you, the premise is that you're sick, otherwise you Ted Van Griethuysen Well, the main thing was, I didn't hear anything very useful. They didn't tell me anything. That was very true or very useful. But I adjust my just I mean, the, the, the, the doctor told me one of the things that the earliest one I went to, after which I had a nervous collapse, David Susskind How long did you go Ted Van Griethuysen Oh, I was there two or three times and he said the world needs homosexuals because women need men who will understand them. And, and the, but what? In terms of cause I can I can give cause this way? It's what I said earlier, I didn't know this. It's a hard thing to see this matter of liking the world. What in the hell does it mean? How do you like a world? It's got Vietnam going on it and it's got the the race question Is it is and has greed and disease and ugliness and filth? What do you mean like it? It's not a simple namby pamby thing, it's as tough as nails. I didn't know, when I was, let's say, 14, that I had a way to see everything that was not myself. How I saw the world was based, I can put it very simply for myself. It was based on a feeling that the world was essentially cold and unfriendly and aloof. Therefore, the attitude I had to the world could be characterized by an attitude of contempt for the world. I met it with a contempt that seemed to meet me with that affected the essential structure of myself. And it affected how I saw women. Now this is a very swift precis, by the way. Oh I would say much earlier, when I was about four, I would say three or four, I knew I was a homosexual, and I was about 15, I guess, in Midwestern America. Nobody ever used the word I didn't know what it was, I knew I liked boys more than more than girls, the boy walked by be inclined to follow Him and not the girl, I knew something was different about me. But when I thought my attitude to women, was one of simple, you know, live and let live and let live, women are fine. And maybe some of my best friends are women. I didn't know that what was simply an antipathy, an absence of physical response to a woman and you know, a woman comes in the room, you have no physical response, you have no physical response. And I did demand that that absence of physical response was an was ignorance on my part, I had a cultural lapse, I would say that homosexuality has to be considered in the cultural field to be understood, there is something I think, wrong with the relation of sameness and difference in terms of the way a person sees the outside world as like him and also different from him. That is why like, we use the word corrupt, it's wrong. When a person learns more, sees more, that relation can change. David Susskind Does the awareness of homosexuality precede the homosexual Act, in your case, by a lot of years? Is there a big gulf between not feeling no response? David Susskind As a person that I'd like to say something about psychiatrist in relation to me, this may shock some of my liberated brothers, but my experience in psychiatry was very good. Because at the age of 19, I had decided I was a homosexual and sought a psychiatrist. And fortunately found someone who said to me, at the end of the first session session, you would no more touch Oh, boy than you would a girl. It's nice to be an idealist, but don't be a damn fool. I did. And my psychiatrist made me possibly made it possible for me to be sexual, which I think is the important thing. And, you know, I found that sexual sexuality that I loved was with men. But so in that respect, I thank my psychiatrist, and I think it's the publicity as a psychiatrist that like Hatter and all that we have been getting, which is really damaging to, I mean, when you think it really frightens me when you think of the two or 3% that these people are dealing with are really changing or whatever it is, and the amount of fear that they are instilling in everybody else. And when I find that all, David Susskind George, when you are a homosexual, is it always as described by Ted an absence of response to the female? Randolfe Hayden Wicker I knew I was a homosexual at the age of 12, or 13. Yet I didn't actually start engaging in homosexual acts until I came out in the village at 17, or 18. For five or six years, I was a very frustrated, inactive but told me, I went to the libraries and read everything I could about in psychology books, case histories. Now remember once was a young boy writing in my diary, if only I could just once meet one other homosexual, which now I sometimes laugh about, because I've discovered that there's a whole world filled with homosexuals. But I wouldn't like to take issue with something nice people say they say that they're not attacking, but putting down the homosexual life style and they are David Susskind before you all put down the idea of the mother father syndrome, creating the homosexual. You did that Randy so that your homosexual inclination, years before any activity was that in any way related to your domestic situations? Randolfe Hayden Wicker No, it was a positive attraction to boys. I mean, I could I could run with people that that weren't sissies that weren't restricted socially. And what you could talk about or what you could do together and men in our society are much freer than women. Sheldon Kranz David, could I say something about that? Because I feel people would like very much to know what is the cause of homosexuality. And aesthetic realism does say there are certain principles, people are different, and it respects individuality very much. But there are principles. One of the things that can be found, as far as we have seen, and this was true for myself, was that at a very early age, I came to feel something about my mother. She was not the only person who was the cause of the homosexuality. But she was crucial because she was one of the first people that I met. She represents... Well, I met my mother when I was born. David Susskind there was a point in time at which you came to have a very specific attitude about your mother. Sheldon Kranz Yes it came, I think it came before I was aware of it. As a matter of fact, I would say I wasn't aware of what my real attitude toward my mother was until I began to study with Eli Siegel. But what happened, whether I was aware of it or not, you see, I feel as what people would like to know. You can go you can get to Chicago by many roads, and you can get to homosexuality by many roads. But what happened for me, and it seems to be fairly classic, is that at a very early age, I came to feel that my mother was terrifically doting and approving of me. At the same time, I came to feel that I should I didn't deserve all this approval. My mother lavished a tremendous amount of attention on me. What does a child feel deeply conscious or unconscious? What does a child feel who feels that his mother is making a tremendous fuss over him and at the same time, feel she's a little silly to be doing this. What I came to, what when it comes to is you do have even as you love this approval, and as you love your mother making a fuss over you and making you feel you're the most important person to her. You also feel contempt. Now, that contempt for a woman is a sign of beginning point. Many other things can come into make for an Attitude Making for homosexuality. But there is a very deep feeling in a homosexual that women are pushovers very often represented by a mother, perhaps it was an aunt perhaps it was a guardian, it doesn't matter. But at a very early age, women are seen as tremendously approving of you. And at the same time you feel something which you could call contempt. David Susskind What was the attitude of your father? Sheldon Kranz My father, that was also classical my father was he was more much more of the my mother. My father never approved of me the way my mother did. I always felt frankly, I was not the Son My father wanted. He wanted a boy, you played baseball, I wanted to read books. And so I think David Susskind Could it be partially a response to him as well as to your mother. Sheldon Kranz Yes, yes. I do think that I also think that in some unconscious way, I came to feel that men, women weren't the pushovers that women were. Mr. Siegel once said to me in this day in an aesthetic realism lesson, he thinks that I was bored with women by the time I'm aware of that, but it happens that in learning these things, something did happen to me one other thing that's important. There's so much said about how society makes homosexuals feel guilty. How it's all society's fault, and if it weren't society, homosexuals would have a simply great time. I simply this is my personal experience. I simply do not agree with that. I believe that homosexuals at their very deepest, do not like being homosexual. I think that if they had the choice, yes, as Merle Miller put it in his article, if he had had the choice, he would have chosen differently. But what is even more important is that aesthetic realism points out that it's not just that you are some victim, you're a victim of your Mother, you're a victim of society. You make choices at the age of three, a child makes choices. They're unconscious, but their choices and aesthetic realism so you can revoke those choices, you do not have to stick with those choices and something else can be David Susskind Coming right back aftera brief pause. |
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INTERVIEW RESUMES:
David Susskind When you discover that you're homosexual, is there any possibility of confiding in anyone who could you go to your mother, your father? Roy Harris In my case? I didn't feel I could I didn't feel they would accept it that way. So I didn't Ted did. I don't know Tom Shields Well, one thing that I could say about this matter of being homosexual, when you're very young, a lot of people think that they were born homosexuals, which I don't feel that anymore, though, I did feel that at one time. But since I've been studying with Eli Siegel, and studying the philosophy of aesthetic realism, I feel that I am not homosexual any longer. And Mr. Siegel said to me in one of my early lessons that I said that I had had feelings for the boy next door at the age of about four. And he said, Mr. Shields if a cloud smiled at you, would you have feelings for it? I want it to be liked very much and I still do. But one of the things that I think is important in terms of aesthetic realism, Mr Susskind, is that Eli Siegel has posed a question, which is a very important one. And that is is Beauty The making one of opposites. So in a sense, what we're talking about here is that all homosexuality is bad, because as aesthetic realism sees it, it is not an aesthetic. It does not make an aesthetic, one of the opposites particularly of sameness and difference. Randolfe Hayden Wicker These people wear their guilt, like a badge of a badge. They say they don't put down homosexulas but they joined with a polarized forces in society that says you are either a heterosexual or homosexual when everyone that's even read the Kinsey study knows that there's a continuum of sexuality. And everyone to to some extent is Tom Shields one thing, one thing. One thing that I want to say is that I felt before I met aesthetic realism inside of me that I was unfair to women. And I felt that it was very important for me, there's a whole David Susskind unfair how, did you reject them? Tom Shields I went with the girls and college No, I went with girls and colleges, I never had sex with a woman. But until I met aesthetic realism, but I know that's the way it was thought to happen. And this isn't a little criticism and your feelings change. But one of the things change. my attitude to women, I want very much to be near women. I wanted to be close to women. But I felt I was only attracted to men. And I felt but I also felt at the same time that I was unfair to the A large portion of this population. David Susskind In what respect, Tom Shields In what respect? Well, Roy Harris well, I could say something about that, Mr. Susskind, because I felt the same thing. I went after men, I liked their bodies. However, at the same time, I liked being around women. I didn't have any men, friends in quotes. My friends were women as I saw it, but I learned from aesthetic realism, that first of all, it is the matter of sameness and difference, whatever was different from me. And it particularly women because they are more obviously different than men are. I was afraid of what was inside a woman. I did not like the depths of a woman. I saw her in a certain way. They were my friends. I never said you know, a lot of I couldn't say deep things. And I've learned this from aesthetic realism from my lessons with Mr. Siegel. That I was so afraid of the insides of a woman I couldn't I couldn't see that. That woman as being good enough for me. Marc Rubin I don't understand this whole, this whole content thing and I don't really well, we did raise it. The reason I don't understand it is that I was married. I was married to a very beautiful, a very sexual, very womanly woman, a creative and beautiful person. We are no longer married primarily because I'm a homosexual. That is that having no contempt for her very beautiful body. Tom Shields that shows contempt right there. Marc Rubin There is no there was no content. No, no. I've been listening to it good. Having no contempt for her very beautiful body. I still want her to be with the bodies of men. Now, there was no contempt involved in my reaction to her sexually. My daughter is a very, very beautiful young woman. I would not in any way, say say that I have contempt for her no matter how far I look into myself. Friends, I don't understand this world where people don't have men, friends and women, friends, people have friends. Do you pick your friends in terms of their sexuality, you pick your friends in terms of their being people. I have not ever been at a point in my life where I haven't had male friends and female friends. Now I have friends who are homosexual and who are not homosexual. My very best friend in the whole world except for my lover is a girl that I've known since I've been since I started college. David Susskind What do you take issue? All he said was that he was afraid of women. Roy Harris Oh, no, the wonerful thing, Mr Susskind, is We've got him riled up. And that's good. That's very good. Because he's thinking, no, no, no, he's no, he's thinking about this. And it's important know what? Our real world our purpose here. They're watching this show. Think about the things we're saying My God. When Mr. Siegel said to me I had contempt for women. Randolfe Hayden Wicker I believe Mr Siegel said everything is he told me that Sheldon Kranz if I may say it happens. It happens that Eli Siegel should be teaching America now. He is that I suggest that the New York Times could recognize that gracefully and humbly they would be able to write an article David Susskind Why are you so totally dismissive. Randolfe Hayden Wicker I went to there I went. I went through David Susskind if it has worked for them, they are happier if they have Randolfe Hayden Wicker They slander my lifestyle. Yes. They do. They say that All homosexuality is based in contempt. It's the first point on their platform, all homosexuality is based it is Ted Van Griethuysen you don't have to agree with it. Randolfe Hayden Wicker I don't Ted Van Griethuysen Alright, wonderful. Fine Sheldon Kranz I'd hate to think they have contempt on homosexuality. If I told anybody in this audience many about the sex, you have contempt, they'd rise up on their hind legs. No one wants to think they have contempt. was important to run this world, Ted Van Griethuysen The problem that a homosexual has is not being homosexual. That is the first thing he has a problem by being alive. That is what we are saying. What what how am I going to see this other people, my mother, the people I want to work with the job I have, where I'm going to live what books I'm going to read. That is his problem. Is he ethical? Is he fair to the what is outside himself. And as he looked upon himself as a person who's done a good job with the world that includes broke biting one's nails, insulting one's mother homosexuality, I changed because I didn't like myself. I didn't like the nails. I mean, I didn't like that either. But I didn't like myself for being homosexual. That's more than society, because I thought I was an incomplete person. That's why Marc Rubin all right, so you had a very unfortunate experience with being homosexual?It represents millions of people Ted Van Griethuysen I had a lot of pleasure but it Sheldon Kranz millions of people hate themselves for being homosexual, It's not society's fault. David Susskind Do many homosexuals. hate themselves? Marc Rubin Do many, many people hate them. Many people have Sheldon Kranz For the same reason. David Susskind in a society that takes a terribly dim view of homosexuals and ours does and where the law is stacked against the homosexual and were passed along people's convictions and feelings are afflicted by the homosexual. Isn't there then for these reasons, good reason for the homosexual to feel unhappy. Marc Rubin Hell no! Sam Zurich came to a meeting of the Gay Activist Alliance. I asked him afterwards. Was it your feeling that you were in a room full of 300 sad people? No, said Sam, if you saw us walking if you saw us inaction, if you saw how I relate to all of my beautiful friends out there, you will not see unhappiness you will not see sadness, you will not see contempt. What you would see is an affirmation of life and of love. David Susskind But how about when you relate to society at large? Not your friend. Marc Rubin Alright, how do we relate to society David Susskind In your school? You're in a public? Do they know you're a homosexual, Marc Rubin about half of the faculty does. And after this everyone will know. David Susskind Now, isn't that isn't that uncomfortable? Marc Rubin Isn't it uncomfortable? David Susskind Does it make you unhappy George Caldwell It's only uncomfortable for the people that don't matter? Marc Rubin You know, it's not. It's not uncomfortable in terms of the people on the staff where I work who know me and who relate to me. I know, they respect me. I know they know I'm a great teacher David Susskind Are their peers, teaching peers of yours or parents of children in the school who feel you shouldn't be teaching in a school. Marc Rubin not that I know. David Susskind If they manifested that conviction to you would that make you unhappy? Marc Rubin No, it wouldn't make me unhappy. It wouldn't make me fight them. Because I have a right to be myself. I am not going I'm not going to be look for years. white society told black people they should be white. And people spent years and years and years and years looking for the for the thing that was going to turn black people white. And then one day, black people realize that black is beautiful, and they aren't the magazine's no longer. The lightening creams because black is beautiful. For years, gay people have been told that they're no good, they're trash, there's something on the compost hep, they haven't been cleaned up. But when they are found out that they are not that they are viable, valuable people, then they don't believe that anymore. That is a lie. It's a lie these people have bought, and it's a lie that society preaches it is a lie. It's so easy. David Susskind We'll be back in a minute. |
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INTERVIEW RESUMES:
David Susskind Evidently, these men found it's such an unhappy lifestyle that they went about to changing, right? You weren't happy? Roy Harris no, I wasn't happy and I was a homosexual from the age of consciously anyway, from 14 to 22 when I met Aesthetic Realism. I was come from Alabama, and I graduated from the University of Alabama on the Phi Beta Kappa, by the way, but one thing I want to say David Susskind it must be very uncomfortable being a homosexual in Alabama. Roy Harris I guess not much more uncomfortable to be anywhere.They're gay bars in Alabama right. Now. Uh, one thing I want to say is that I mean, our purpose is not here tonight is not to convince the other four gentlemen that they should change. However, then there are people all over the country. I know who I know, I'm enough like people who would like to change it happens right now that Mr. Van Griethuysen, Mr. Kranz and myself are presently involved in consultations. We have various people come to us and talk. It's called consultation with three and then it's available. It's called the terrain gallery wa 94. David Susskind Roy, what was the specific miseries that led you Roy Harris I wouldn't describe it as misery because it makes it very, I would say simply, I didn't like myself being homosexual. And however, it why as a person because every time I had a homosexual experience from the time I was at least 18, consciously, I felt bad after I had sex. Oh, that's very, very bad. David Susskind bad as in guilty. Roy Harris Yes, guilty. I felt cheap. I felt I would feel simply not clean. The point is, that's how I felt about it. And I think there are other people who feel the same thing. And I'm not saying these people had to change at all. But I when I heard through Tom shields, who first told me about aesthetic realism, and he invited me to the terrain gallery for the first time, when I heard that he could change that I could change. There was a possibility I might have a real deep feeling, an honest feeling about a woman. I mean, that meant very much to me, and it happens. I have a son who's a year old Gabriel. And that meant very much to me. And the thing is, what happens in aesthetic realism and I wouldn't have listened to it for a second. David Susskind Did You try psychiatry? Roy Harris I did twice. And I even went to a therapist and the therapist for six months and there were no real changes after that. David Susskind Where did psychiatry fail you? Ted Van Griethuysen I would say it didn't see me as I was as a healer with Eli Siegel and my aesthetic realism lessons. He didn't see me as a homosexual. I wouldn't have sat there for five minutes through a lesson. He saw me as a whole person who was who did not see the world In a way that made me like myself David Susskind Did Psychiatry fail you, Roy, because they looked at you as a sickie. Is that what you resent it? Roy Harris Yeah. David Susskind But you went there because you fell sick Roy Harris Right. So I didn't know. Sheldon Kranz David, you know, what I think it is, I think the reason it failed is that they simply did not under do not understand. The deep cause of homosexuality, they see it much too much in terms of medical terms, something sick. You see, without seeing it as a cultural matter, they're right for shock, the way one sees the world is the big thing that affects the way you see a wife, the way you see your job, the way you see the world affects everything you do change that. And if you happen to be homosexual, it will change the way you see women. But you see, it happens that it's a cultural man, it's a matter of ethics, it's a matter of aesthetics. It's a matter of philosophy. Psychiatry simply does not see that these are crucial in understanding this. Roy Harris Also, when I went to a psychiatrist, I was never criticized, I got criticism from Eli Siegel, tough criticism. He told me the way I saw women wasn't good. The way I saw men wasn't particularly good. And he gave me an outline from which I could see things in a way I liked. And it was tough criticism. There was also kind because I wouldn't have sat around and just heard me and things about myself. I'm sorry, I'm, I'm out. I'm looking at the number one. David Susskind you have had no reaction to the inevitable scorn of society in general. In other words, it hasn't got you to where you say, No, I've got to do something about Well, are you an activist, for example, today George Caldwell To begin with, I've never played games, I, you know, I became a homosexual or admitted that I was homosexual to myself, when I was 19. I'm 38. Now, and I have a lover. Who's we've been together for nine years. And we have never played game games. We've always told we haven't run around telling everybody that we're homosexuals. We know, you respect. Well, that's a peculiar issue. And we can get into whole rap on that. I told my family when I was 19, they chose not to believe it. They treat my lover as though he were a son in law. But I see no particular reason, in my case to call long distance on the phone and say, you know, we disagree in politics, we disagree. And, and guess what else? But mean, since they didn't believe it the first time they David Susskind 19 years later, still don't? George Caldwell Well, I mean, I've told them that I'm not going to marry in their sense of the word. But I certainly have had no problem really in, in the business world. I'm in a fairly responsible position. And I knew or figured that my boss knew that I was homosexual, when he hired me, considering my age and my singleness in New York. And there was, you know, no real problem. And then when I got involved in the Gay Activist Alliance, I took him aside and said, you know, you know, I'm a homosexual? And he said, Yes. I said, I have no real complaints. But once in a while, I'm bothered by not told the story before. But once in a while, I'm bothered by little things. You will have a cocktail party and invite the female editor's husband and you don't invite my husband. Well, I'm happy to say my boss and my lover sitting out there together. So when I really got involved, you know, I first got involved in the Gay Activists Alliance, I joined David Susskind Let me ask you something about that. Is 19, very late age for the awareness George Caldwell the well, I explained that in a way, because I was so afraid to have at that time to have sex with anything or anyone or any, either sex, and because society, the kind of society religious society that I came from, had created such taboos, David Susskind Are you Catholic? George Caldwell No, no, David Susskind Was it a very strict religious upbringing George Caldwell But what I wanted to say was that what really got me angry. I mean, after all, I, my lover and I have had a way of coping with this kind of oppression. And I decided that when the militant movement started, that the people who have the least to lose economically and other in other ways, get involved first, but it behooves those of us who have a lot to lose economically to get involved. And then I discovered when I really got out into the open and did programs like this, or March, that it wasn't the big hassle that I thought it was going to be. There were some hassle in my own mind about oh, having to rethink the whole homosexual thing again, you know, 19 years later, or how many years but otherwise and everybody that really matters has been, you know, has nothing has changed. And they all know it now. And what else can I say David Susskind Furritiveness is no longer part of your attitude, you're open and George Caldwell the only furritiveness that I ever had was when I was nothing. When I was not sexual being. I, I you know, we keep talking about these utopian world David Susskind You went from nothingness to homosexual George Caldwell there was some heterosexual activity in between. But I really find that the saddest people are those people who have have no sex at all, or have repressed all sex. I think that is, that is really sad. Randolfe Hayden Wicker You know,David, you assume that society gets at the homosexual I decided 10 years ago, I was going to be myself, I was going to be a free person. And I was one of the first people I organized the first public homosexual demonstration put the first homosexuals on radio speaking for themselves, is the first person in New York to go on TV as a homosexual. And I expect it you know, to be stoned on street corners, I really thought there'd be a great hostile reaction. And instead, I really breathed free air for the first time. And I got a job in publishing when my boss knew I was homosexual. And instead of being condescending, there was a reverse publish of reverse prejudice because he thought I was a homosexual genius, because I did great jobs with his magazines. And I started a business where I was self employed, I didn't have to bow to anyone. So I really think that what homosexuals have to learn in this country is this is a free society. And we have free enterprise and free enterprise doesn't care what you're doing, but he cares. He cares about how you organize work, how you produce a product, how you compete in the system, and it rewards efficiency and it rewards productivity. A few years ago, I created this slogan button. Boom, did very well financially for several years now. I'm taking a couple years off to travel and write. I feel I found freedom through free enterprise and I'm a free man and I'm proud Sheldon Kranz Can I have a moment? David Susskind Yes, go ahead. Sheldon Kranz What's very interesting to me, it's the thing that I to mention Merle Miller again, because I think that article had a big effect on people David Susskind that article we go around the country. That article is a New York Times Sunday magazine article right Rob Miller what it means to be a homosexual. Sheldon Kranz But what I feel one of the things that I'm very aware of and it's one of the biggest things I had to learn. In my study with Eli Siegel. There's very little criticism of people who want to defend homosexuality. It's also happens to be a general thing with people. I wish Merle Miller had been able to say one thing self critical of himself. I would like to ask Merle Milla homosexuality aside, does he like the way he sees people? I would ask that of any human being Do you like holy the way you see other people? That to me is a beginning question that is necessary. I feel,instead of harping on how society is not this how society is not that? Even if you Let's assume you like being homosexual, some people seem to do they like the way they see people that seems to be much more important than one the second Marc Rubin The more important thing is, do you like the way you see yourself? If people are unhappy? Ted Van Griethuysen Especially the question, can you like yourself? Unless you like how yourself sees other people and deals with other people? That question doesn't mean anything. It may not a relationship think about it. Sheldon Kranz Every marriage has it. David Susskind We'll be back in a minute. |
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INTERVIEW CONCLUDES:
David Susskind Okay, first question. Audience Question Yes, the gentleman representing aesthetic realism said that homosexuality is bad because it doesn't fit their aesthetic standard. Now I don't understand why they feel that they have a right to demand that everybody adopt their aesthetic tastes. And if it's a matter of then having been unhappy as homosexual, I'm sure none of us would say that they shouldn't have the opportunity to seek some sort of help and becoming happier but for them to assume that because they were unhappy we have to be and we have to follow their path is very strange. It sounds more like a religion than a David Susskind do you make that assumption that a lot of homosexuals around Tom Shields one thing I could say with it is that when I said is Beauty The making one of opposites. This is a question posed for all art. It's a summary of art. It's not just you know, it's not it's David Susskind Eli is getting so many plugs here. Are you proselytizing? your newfound? Ted Van Griethuysen Oh, rubbish? No, may I speak please. Audience Question The thing, The reason I asked these questions is because we're sitting here discussing somebody's esthetics right? When the fact of the matter is that there are homosexuals whose political rights are being abridged. Now to put us on a level of discussing this aesthetic issue is, you know, an enormous insult to homosexuals. Sheldon Kranz Who happens to be the answer to everyone who hopes not to be? Audience Question Well, you're welcome to go out and do it. But let the rest of us get on with our business. Ted Van Griethuysen Rest. First of all, I would not say if you have construed it to mean that we are demanding that all homosexuals must in the body rise up and go and change, I would say that is incorrect instructions. What we're saying is that this is how we saw fit to change. The only basis on which we saw change is one tolerable, two possible three likeable now, if we have a chance to present the basis of that change, it is hoped that people having minds and an audience would consider that as we considered it. When I first heard about a relation of aesthetics to homosexuality, I didn't know what the hell it was. I thought it doesn't cope with a gay bar, what's all this about doesn't cope with them, the desires I have on the street, or what I feel about society, I had to study that approach for a while to see all we're after, is to have that approach, given a fair chance in America to be consistent, but Audience Question you don't find us coming up on the stage and saying, now, to be fair, we want to teach you all how to become homosexual. You know, you're going out and preaching. We're very happy and we're not preaching to anybody else. Ted Van Griethuysen You may do so if one wants to say I think I'm more complete person now because I'm not homosexual. stay that way. David Susskind George, go ahead. George Caldwell Keep saying your you know, you're being very tolerant every time we attack you for proselytizing or something. But then, but then you get right back around to saying all homosexuality is contemptible. Ted Van Griethuysen No, no, no, you change the word. It's desperately important that words be clearly used. One says that homosexuality has within it. An attitude to the world aesthetic realism says this, we study this. It is for others to ask, could that be true? Gregory Battcock I think is that possible? Yes. I agree Ted Van Griethuysen You say that there's someone who's agreeing. Gregory Battcock I have an attitute of contempt to a white chauvinstic heterosexual, male chauvinist. Ted Van Griethuysen Well now Ah, now Good. Good, good, good. Fine. Yeah. I this this has to be said there are two kinds of contempt Gregory Battcock These theories which seem to there are millions of people in America with this idea that you've got this simple formula that opposites attracts Ted Van Griethuysen millions of people if you're confused with how to make it clear. Now, if you're not Gregory Battcock on a classic comic book on the theories of Hegel, when you were 12 years old, Ted Van Griethuysen may I answer the question, answer the question. There are two kinds of contempt as I see it, this is what I have learned. One is good for the person having it one is bad for the person having I think one should have contempt for Mr. Agnew, for example. I think he's a bore. He shouldn't be in public office, that contempt does me a lot of good every week. There is another contempt let us say contempt for the mind of another person to say, what is your mind worth to me? I'll put you down and make myself a little grander thereby. We love to have society fight us, because that makes the world a little and Marc Rubin that is precisely what you're doing to us. Ted Van Griethuysen Well, if we are the most highly David Susskind they seem to say about themselves, they were very unhappy the other way Marc Rubin David and we are saying right on, they were unhappy. I really feel it's unfortunate. They were unhappy. My first homosexual experience was, you know, like you couldn't pull me down from the clouds. I'm sorry, his was a bad one. Let them change if they are unhappy. I am not sitting here condemning their lifestyle. I am not saying that they are full of contempt. I am saying they are being contemptuous on me want me to say what I what I'm doing what they are doing is they are saying that they have found the truth through the great gurus Siegel And what we and what we have is leaving us in darkness Ted Van Griethuysen Don't talk about him we will walk off this program David Susskind You would respect, Gregory. You would respect their private unhappiness which led them to try to do something about that. Gregory Battcock I would resent them trying to confuse the entire rest of the potentially homosexual homosexual David Susskind What would you tell them which is essentially heterosexual about the homosexual that they don't understand already. Gregory Battcock I don't know if the audience is essentially hederosexual David Susskind I would think it is a fair presumption that I've heard that there are probably two to Gregory Battcock I think what we might the aesthetic realist seem to assume that it's desirable. There's something desirable about being a heterosexual that I would like, I think might be question I think this is an erroneous assumption, which is basically a product of American medical and psychoanalytic beliefs which are basically unsophisticated, uncultured, rather sort of routine, as opposed to European psychoanalytical medical beliefs. This is the beber attitude of the doctor mad as a hatter attitude or one of these. What this actually seems to seems to boil down to his common malady which has afflicted American medicine. And the thing is, you create a disease to meet your your meta coma, your medications, you know, and we've all been treated for things we didn't have and operations and gold tortures and deformities and things that are put off on people by American medicine. I think this is recognized in the Western world. David Susskind How would you like medicine to regard homosexuality, Gregory Battcock unhappy homosexual homosexuals probably can be aided in a variety of ways. I think. We assume that it's even desirable to change someone from heterosexual from homosexuality to heterosexuality or vice versa, is a questionable attitudes. David Susskind Yes but should psychiatry by your lights believe and preach that homosexuality is another continuum? In sexual behavior? And a normal one? Gregory Battcock yes. By all means, any any form of loving, if it's working well, deserves to be encouraged. David Susskind And is it blasphemy to consider it a disorder of any quiet or an aberration, Ted Van Griethuysen then we can face the blasphemy, it's Joan of Arc, put us on the stake Randolfe Hayden Wicker the degree to which the gentleman has changed? I don't believe anyone who has really known men in love man and seen the vision of men is beautiful sexual beings can never completely lose that vision. Now, I don't doubt that they may have changed their lifestyles, they may have even developed or increase their capacity to appreciate and love women. And I don't oppose them in that. But I can you will never convince me that these men have have completely that they have they have repressed and they have joined the forces a society David Susskind Ted is long. Married, can you answer? Ted Van Griethuysen Yes, I can. Because you see, the thing is, I think it's essentially evasion to to talk about whether or not you want to sleep with men or women, that is a byproduct of a change or a possibility of changing the human mind. I think that one of the things I felt before changing was I couldn't see any advantage to changing. I didn't see heterosexuals were any happier than homosexuals. Matter of fact, I even tried to convince myself I was a little lucky because I was out of all that stuff. And I can have all these divine feelings about Greek statues and things. But at the same time, try but I would say that it the the condition of happiness is the thing people are terrifically believe about. One says, I'm a very happy person. He says, gritting his teeth. You know, it's a very gosh darn hard thing to be happy. On what basis? How is it permanent, people don't think happiness is permanent. There's no basis for it. And one can say so easily. Go out and love everybody. Wonderful, how it's gosh darn hard to go out and just love people. There is a there is a problem of how to see another human being I could look at any one person in the audience and say, I would have essentially the same question with you that I would have with any other person. Do I see you right? How do you see me, I like to meet people, David Susskind Is loving people in general, easier for you as a heterosexual as it was Ted Van Griethuysen it has nothing to do with being happy Sheldon Kranz It's the other way around David. You start by seeing people in a new way. As a result, you change about women, for example, one of the biggest things that I found so attractive when I met aesthetic realism was that it didn't just have an attitude to people in terms of problems or difficulties that happens aesthetic realism has a whole way of seeing the arts. It says that all beauty is the making one of opposites. Hegel not withstanding Gregory Battcock doesn't mean it's true. Just because no doesn't mean Sheldon Kranz No, it doesn't. You have to test it. And you have to look at 1000 paintings and 1000 poems and 1000 plays and then even Marc Rubin deal with a homosexual Michelangelo ever. Sheldon Kranz I don't think he was, but that's beside the point. What happens is, Ted Van Griethuysen he wasn't an artist if it was because he was a homosexual. Sheldon Kranz But this is the important thing, what one of the things I learned. And this happens to be something that everyone is concerned with not just people who have a homosexual problem, since since people don't like the way they see other people mostly to themselves, not what they say for public consumption. It's very important to be able to say that what this person has in him what he is like, is different from me. Obviously, he's someone other than me, but he's also like me, the only way I know that a person can come to see other people as different from him, but also like him, is through studying art. Now it happens for example, Eli Siegel gave several years ago gave a series of talks last, why as because in actuality, sameness and difference is absolutely crucial. Clearly in the sexual field what is like you, you like more than what is different from you, it is closer, as I've said before, which will get squeezed, it happens that in homosexuality, you are closer unfortunately to self love than you are to loving the outside world. Now, until you can see how sameness and difference can be put together in you and another person, you have got to see it in other places, not medically, but culturally, art always puts together sameness and difference Voltaire does it. Picasso does it I mean, you can take any artist in any field, you will see a magnificent oneness of what is like and what is different. And when homosexual sees that without even saying I'm going to you see women differently, you simply do and I can only tell you from my own experience, women came to be seen as more like me than different from me, they were not something necessarily to be afraid of, to be two people away from for whatever reason. So therefore, sameness and difference, which happens to be an aesthetic problem is crucial in understanding homosexuality. David Susskind Okay, back in one |
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