19891980s NEWS
The Eleventh Hour - Show #135
Title: Boxing
Guests: Howard Cosell, Sports Journalist; Floyd Patterson, former Heavyweight Champion; and Ronald LeVeau, Professor Queens College
Original Broadcast Date: 2-24-89
Description: The controversy surrounding the sport of Boxing is discussed with Sports Journalist Howard Cosell, Floyd Patterson, Heavyweight champion; and Ronald Leveau, Professor Queens College.
Title: Boxing
Guests: Howard Cosell, Sports Journalist; Floyd Patterson, former Heavyweight Champion; and Ronald LeVeau, Professor Queens College
Original Broadcast Date: 2-24-89
Description: The controversy surrounding the sport of Boxing is discussed with Sports Journalist Howard Cosell, Floyd Patterson, Heavyweight champion; and Ronald Leveau, Professor Queens College.
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Color Bars - WNET
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Title Slate: The Eleventh Hour - #135, Boxing
REC: 2/21/89 |
| 01:02:00 120.35 |
Funding for the show by announcer and overlays The Eleventh Hour graphic.
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| 01:02:11 131.76 |
The Eleventh Hour graphic and show opener.
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Host Robert Lipsyte welcomes viewers and introduces himself. He talks about today's topic, boxing as a sport "but it's really show business with blood". He announces the upcoming Las Vegas fight where Mike Tyson defends his heavy weight title against Frank Bruno.
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Lipsyte introduces his guests, the very well known boxing commentator and sports journalist, Howard Cosell; Floyd Patterson, former heavyweight champion; and Ronald LeVeau, English professor Queens College.
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Host Lipsyte cuts to an excerpt from the Mike Spinks vs Mike Tyson heavyweight fight
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Clip from (HBO Sports) well publicized fight between Mike Tyson and Michael Spinks. Crowd surrounds the fighters as they walk to and enter the "Trump" sponsored boxing ring. A few rounds of the fight are shown, Michael Spinks goes down in Round 1.
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Back to the studio with Host Lipsyte and guests.
INTERVIEW INSERT: Robert Lipsyte: to get back in the game? What, what do you feel? Howard Cosell Well, I feel the way I expressed myself all over the country for a number of years ever since Thanksgiving Day weekend in 1982 when Larry Holmes delivered 26 unanswered blows to the head of Randy "Tex" Cobb. Which hasn't been the same since. But I have serious doubts about that. I know Michael Spinks. I did the '76 Olympics. I saw Michael Spinks win the gold. I saw Michael Spinks beat up on a gifted Soviet veteran who was a professional fighter of great caliber, in my opinion. His name was Rufat Riskiyev. Floyd doesn't I remember him. Rufat Riskiyev. Robert Lipsyte I remember him well. So Howard, what, what are your doubts about that? Howard Cosell That wasn't Michael Spinks that night. Robert Lipsyte No? It was a replica, it was, what was it? Howard Cosell It was a man who didn't fight? Robert Lipsyte Who was intimidated, who was scared? Howard Cosell That I can't answer. Robert Lipsyte But what was your feeling? I mean, you still are revolted by boxing. Howard Cosell My feeling about that night. I saw that fight. I was at the New York Athletic Club. And it was that night when Leon Hess came over to me to apologize for his testimony in the USFL NFL fight. So that's what I was concentrating on that night. Robert Lipsyte You're not really thinking about boxing all that time. A Ron Levao, do you see something larger, something metaphorical in that or is it just two guys hitting each other? Ron Levao Well, I think if boxing is simply two men hitting each other is not going to survive. That's clearly what happens, physically, but compare it to theater! Before you see is two men getting on a stage putting on makeup and lying who they are, "I'm Prince Hamlet," reading lines that have been written hundreds of years ago then drama's dead. And clearly, that's what happens in drama, but there's more. And that's what happens in boxing, but there's more. As soon as you don't see it, then you should get out of the game and stop watching it or reporting on it. Robert Lipsyte But Floyd, I have a feeling that you might see it more purely. You see two guys hitting each other. Floyd Patterson Yes. Also, you see, Tyson is a very, very, he starts very fast, extremely fast, much faster than any other heavyweight I've ever seen. And I felt that Spinks would lose the fight, if Tyson started, as I said before, as fast as usually those he would catch him. And that's exactly what happened. I was looking for a early knockout. I figured Spinks would come out and box and move around, maybe run for 3, 4, 5 rounds and then start throwing punches, maybe lose the first four or five rounds. Robert Lipsyte When you see, when you see Tyson as powerful a champion as Tyson a young. Do you feel good about the heavyweight championship, about having been a heavyweight champion about the kind of the lineage of heavyweights? Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) Yes, I feel good. I feel very good. I was the heavyweight champion of the world, which is something I never ever dreamed I'd ever become. So naturally, when I did do it, I was very, very proud of where my accomplishments Robert Lipsyte And in a sense, you have a stake in every heavyweight champion that comes after you because this is this is also your credential. Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) Well, particularly Tyson, simply because we had the same manager, see we had maybe slightly similar backgrounds and Cus found us both and he did something for the both of us. Robert Lipsyte You feel that you were salvaged by boxing, as was Tyson? Floyd Patterson Well, I would say has it not been for boxing, I'd probably be speaking to whomever would listen to me from behind bars. Because I started out very young on the wrong side of the street. And when I was 14, I found boxing, I found something I could give my whole self to. It's a sport that I really loved. And now I don't look at boxing from the brutality standpoint, as most people do, when I'm inside the ring, I attempt to outthink,outmaneuver my opponent. I attempt to hit and not get hit, which makes it all the science as far as I'm concerned. This is the way I see it. Robert Lipsyte Oh, Howard, when you hear that kind of testimony, you know, what right? Howard Cosell I though you reduced that very well. I definitely. And I think that Floyd would, is a living advertisement for those who propagate the notion that boxing should exist, but it's not true. And Floyd knows it's not true. Floyd knows very well that nobody has lived with him more closely than I, throughout his whole career. From sitting in a hole in a subway and the Bedford Stuyvesant section to the Wiltwyck School for Disturbed Kids in Esopus, New York, the 40 schools, to which he gravitated in New York City. Floyd knows that I was there on November 30th, 1956 in the Chicago Stadium, when he knocked out Archie Moore to win the title in the fifth round. He knows how I fought side by side with Cus D'Amato against the old IBC. Floyd knows that I was up at Greenwood Lake and his training camp. He knows that every step of the way in his whole boxing life, nobody was closer to him than I, and Floyd knows that he sat in a committee room in Washington. And finally, after hearing me testify, he sat there and said, Mr. Cosell is right. We need a Federal Boxing Commissioner. You remember that, Floyd? |
| 01:09:59 599.79 |
INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
Floyd Patterson Yes, I still agree with that. Howard Cosell Absolutely! And finally, did after long work with the New York State Athletic Commission, and we have to have that. I never in my wildest dreams thought I could beat the boxing lobby and get boxing outlawed. I took that tack because I had no recourse. After years, as Floyd knows, of fighting for a federal regulation of boxing. And for a Federal Sports Commission, which I still fight for, which I first testified for. Robert Lipsyte Well, you being political and pragmatic Howard, because you know, what could be accomplished. If you could accomplish banning boxing, would you? Howard Cosell Absolutely, because every medical body of authority, responsible authority, has proved to me that brain damage is ultimate, and that it has to occur. And I'm now convinced of that. So I changed. I realize that I was the principal spokesman for boxing for a lot of years. And Floyd was one of the key reasons, one of the very key reasons. But I reached a point and that Holmes cop fight where I could no longer take it and I walked away on the air. Robert Lipsyte Professor, with this kind of nuance, Ron, with this kind of nuance going on, you know with with guys whose lives are salvaged, which may be real indictment of American society that this is the way that intelligent person has to be salvaged is through brutality. Howard Cosell But Bob, nobody knows better than you that we're talking about a tiny handful of people. Robert Lipsyte Exactly. Howard Cosell (NT-3135) Which Floyd is one of them. Robert Lipsyte What is that? That's good. This is this is the cacophony of the ring, Ron, you got a movement, but how do you take that next step? You know, into kind of metaphor. I enjoyed your essay and in reading the fights, the kind of sense that there is something larger to be learned. Ron Levao (NT-3135) Well, first of all, just because I'm a professor, I don't want to be stuck with the metaphor allegorical reading of fights. The physical reality in the ring is obviously primary. Everything comes from that. And what I read in boxing is not a metaphor of great Manichaean struggles of good and evil, what I'm reading is the kinds of things Floyd just talked about, intelligence in the ring, strategy. There is a difference between watching say, Sugar Ray Leonard fighting and watching the poor guy who just got knocked out by Simon Brown last weekend. Fighters need to know their craft, they need to be good at what they do, in order to be interesting to watch. And one of the great paradoxes about boxing is that a skilled fighter causes more damage than a crude fighter, but you don't feel like banning boxing after seeing as a good fighter operate. After watching Floyd, watching Sugar Ray Leonard fight, one is exhilarated. How would you yourself, didn't you go to the Leonard Hagman fight? Weren't you there? And this was after you would call the abolition? Howard Cosell (NT-3135) No. Ron Levao (NT-3135) I thought that you were there? Howard Cosell (NT-3135) No, no, I went on the air and said that Leonard would beat up on Hagler because Leonard at this stage of his life, because he's a smart kid, shrewd kid, cunning kid, will only fight people he knows he can beat. And he knew that Hagler was in fact, he concluded that deal. Mike Trainer called my home in the Hamptons, at a time when Ray Leonard was there at my home with his wife and kids, to tell them that the fight had been consummated. And I said, you're going to beat up on him, so maybe you won't be blinded. But you talked to Dr. Shannared, so other great eye doctors all over the country, there is always that risk. Ron Levao Yes. Howard Cosell There is a, okay. There's what you do. What you have is a romantic notion. You're entitled, it's a free country. Ron Levao I'm not saying- look, look at Floyd, look at what good condition he is in. He's in Howard Cosell Floyd? Floyd is the living advertisement. What I just said. Ron Levao Yes. Howard Cosell (NT-3135) He got away with it. Ron Levao Yes. But he had many fights against the toughest fighters ever- no- Howard Cosell But they were not always very good for Floyd. Ron Levao Nope. Floyd Patterson Let me say one more thing, alright, just to uh. Going so many years back, I believe in 1971, a reporter wrote an article saying of all the heavyweight champions, I had been on the canvas, the most, I held the record. And I thought about it even more,even Ingemar Johnansson knocked me down seven times in one round. Now one would think that one could not go down seven times, there wouldn't be enough time to go down seven times in one round. But I did. And I have been on the canvas many, many times. Many times I got up off the canvas to go on to defeat my opponent. So I held the record for going down. But obviously, I've never been counted on the canvas, I also hold the record for getting up. But they didn't put that. Anyway, anyway, the back back to what I was saying, which would indicate I've been hit quite a bit throughout my career. Now I was asked by someone over television a couple of years ago, do I think I have brain damage? Well, if I have brain damage, I wish you told all my friends because I've never thought so sharply. And I think it's all through boxing. |
| 01:14:32 872.85 |
INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
Ron Levao (NT-3135) It also it also trains you there were some fighters who trained under certain trainers who all come up brain damage. I mean, there's a Canadian trainer who's notorious, all of his fighters come out sounding terrible, whereas Cus D'Amato's fighters don't, they learn how to defend themselves. Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) Let me let me say some fighters that come into the box Howard Cosell (NT-3135) Irving Ungerman, The manager of George Chuvalo? It was Irving who said he would fight as long as Chuvalo could stand. Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) Many of the fighters that come into boxing, they come into the boxing, talking that way before they have their first fight. Many of them like Hurricane Jackson, before he came into boxing, I knew him before he became a fighter. He spoke the same way. And as he went through his career, he got hit quite a bit, but he continued to speak, he continued to speak the same way he did before he found boxing. Robert Lipsyte He got hit by you quite a bit too. Floyd, I was I mean, your commitment is very strong here. I mean, you've got you know, a boy going in there. I mean, your own adoptive son is going Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) That's what he wants. Robert Lipsyte But this is also obviously what you want. I mean, you're you're going along with him, to help him. Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) Well I only want it because he wants it. Robert Lipsyte because he wanted Will you? Did you try to talk him out of it? Let me explain. In the very beginning, I thought he only wanted to find amateurs. So he fought amateur for about eight years, you know? And then finally, he said to me when to turn pro. And I was kind of shocked, because I thought he would just do the amateurs and maybe, you know, be something else. Anyway, when he said he wanted to turn pro, I said, Look, let's wait when we go into gloves, when one time you still want to turn pro, they will do it in what you did. 1985. So he turned pro. And if he loved the sport as much as I do, which I'm sure he does, by the way, he sacrifices by the way he trained, and all the puts into it. I'm sure he loves it as much as I do. So because of that, I'm willing to accept him as a fighter let me ask you this you this, obviously, he's going to have a kind of, of loving management here. I mean, the one thing is you don't want to get hurt. Which is not necessarily in the back of the mind of every manager and trainer who just throwing kids out there to win to see what they can do. Do you think that there are things that you do with him that can be done with any manager and fighter that could just kind of turn this thing around? Well, for instance, the stopping of a fight, I would not let him fight unless I'm there. Because I trust my judgment, more than I do the doctors or the referee? So if I feel the faith should be stopped, I'm going to stop it. I've only only want that almost begin to stop a fight and that was a he was fighting in the amateurs And the guy came out, knocked them down. And they earlier in the first round, he got up, the guy knocked him down again. And he went down hard the second time. So I grabbed the towel. I was heading for the ring. The throw it in. We my son had got up and the fellow rushed into me to a sidestep and he called the guy with the right hand left fucking knocked him go. That was just getting ready to stop the fight. Howard Cosell (NT-3135) Floyd. You worked for the New York State Athletic Commission. Right? A number of years. Yes. You were deeply concerned about fighters safety, even to changing the construction of the gloves. Yeah, okay. We work together. Yeah. Now, you knew and I knew that there were mismatches frequently all over the place, the presumably best regulated states, California, Nevada, New Jersey and New York. Yet you knew and bore witness to the fact that Sugar Ray sales, though legally blind, was licensed to fight in New Jersey. You saw a kid named Mike Pacheco fight in New York, when he didn't even live by the Oregon medical advisory boards dictates that he couldn't fight until 45 days and a lapse from his previous knockout. All these things are wrong with boxing, you tried to correct them. You couldn't succeed. I devoted a career to trying to correct them. I couldn't succeed. What do you do then? How do we correct it? by a fellow from Queens College very decent man sitting here and writing about how great it is how it's drama, there's got to be more to it than that. If it still survives, Ron Levao (NT-3135) haven't read the stuff on the other side too. And my piece, it's told me to read your book, I'll tell you to read my article. Howard Cosell (NT-3135) You've got to learn about boxing. You've got to learn about promoters. Have you ever pretended that either honest Bob Arum or blustering Don King is a saint. Quite the contrary, you know, very differently. Oh, how do you carry a correct this? How do you make it better? Finally? Yeah, Mr. Cosell is right. We need a federal boxing commission. Why can we even get that? What power prohibits us from getting that Floyd? Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) I would the Washington to testify to the same thing that we need the federal cadets, right. That's right after me. Right. Nothing ever materialized on it. People make the attempt but for some reason or another, the proper authorities don't follow up on it. Robert Lipsyte Let me let me ask you to comment on this. This is by the essayist Edward Hoagland from from the book. It is curious, that was such a crushing, befuddling climate of general violence as there is in New York. We should still be paying money to go to price fights. Ron, do you have any thoughts about that? Ron Levao (NT-3135) Yes, both. If boxing were only two men hitting each other in their head, you could do it so much more cheaply just go out on the street corner and watch it. But if they divide, what do you do cab drivers on a street and you have to pay 200 bucks to sit at ringside. There's something about people who are supremely skilled at what they doing, doing something Howard Cosell (NT-3135) Like Charles "sunny" Liston pugilism's gift to literacy and culture. He was a skilled fighter right Ron Levao (NT-3135) slow but very skilled |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
Robert Lipsyte Don't Don't let him draw you into a boxing issue, I want to I want to you to finish your thought in terms of you know, this this kind of violence I mean, what what is it that we want is it we want violence obviously, maybe we don't want disorderly messy violence of the two cab drivers. Maybe we want it in some nice contained sort of a way where we can walk away from it Ron Levao (NT-3135) well contained or violence as a means toward an intense experience. I don't want to get into aesthetic metaphor because as the professor I become a caricature for doing that. But there was a certain intensity in boxing that you don't find in other sports is I don't I've never been able to follow football except for a game once in a while or baseball sometimes for half a season I'll follow the Mets because my wife is in med fan but boxing does is the only sport that's ever turned me on and that's been true for 30 years Robert Lipsyte let me ask you this to go Howard to Howard, because you have to blame to bear in this Howard because I'm sure that a lot a lot of of Ron's intensity towards boxing came through your report Howard Cosell (NT-3135) I took you I've never yell you use that tack with my class. Robert Lipsyte I was right there. Right now now is wait just know just Ron Levao (NT-3135) know because how we're often sounded bored at the fights. I remember when Carlos Monzon was on he was talking to Jackie Stewart. Well, Jackie, how about your new race and meanwhile, Manzon who's now ranked among the top three or four middle weights of all time. Here's a boring fight. We don't have watch this anymore Howard Cosell (NT-3135) He was he was fighting Nino benvenuti who shouldn't have been licensed to fight on that occasion. What did you know about the background of that fight? What did you know about me going to the airport at nice with my wife when it was clear, and I was there to meet Arthur Mercante who was sending he came there referee referee, he wound up being a judge the things that go on you don't know anything about and I can't give you a lesson in one show with Bobby Lipsyte who lived on the boxing beat with me through all the years. Robert Lipsyte Howard, You don't have to know all that stuff to have the intense experience any more than you have to know the background of all the actors to enjoy Hamlet. You know, why are you Why are you laughing? Let me ask you about let's let's talk about Tyson for a moment and talk about intense experiences in the sense of the way he's been treated in the last couple of years, particularly in the sports media. On Earth, he becomes at first a noble Savage. Again, a kind of henpecked husband. What what are they trying to tell us about? About boxers about us? Oh, yeah. Howard Cosell (NT-3135) It's just the usual hype and promotion by the boxing writers who want to stay alive in their business, that's all Ron Levao (NT-3135) No, it's they don't know what to make of Tyson. And that's the problem. You could package a fight and wake up. Exactly because he changes from minute to minute. That's one of the things that's interesting about him. He's a complex human being the way most human beings are. Look, what do you do with them? One moment, Jimmy Jacobs is in control. And here's the man is going to break Joe Lewis is 25 title defenses. Here's a man who has not only incredible potential, but he's been packaged just perfectly, he's going to make coke ads for the rest of his life. He's going to become a billionaire in the ring. All of a sudden, after Jimmy dies in a wonderful guy, but he knew what he wanted to do with Tyson. Tyson seems to go out of control fires his trainer, he marries this woman from Hollywood. He seems to be what can you do with Tyson? I mean, Barbara Walters tried to package him some way by actually by sympathizing with his wife, friend. That was a very bizarre interview. But Tyson changes from minute to minute now he's in dine living with Don King. The problem is, how can you make a commodity out of someone who keeps changing every couple of weeks? |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
Robert Lipsyte Floyd, what do you think about that? I mean, you in a sense are kind of an older brother of Tyson through cus Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) I just think he's confused. See, cus was always there with all the answers. You know, I had to tell him what to do, when to do it and how to do it, which he didn't know. And you think he would have learned from cus. But when cus passed away then he was alone, and I personally feel sorry for him because a lot of people take advantage. I think the marriage was was just start. And I think many people since then have gone on to do other things. I just totally feel sorry for him. I don't think how well do you know? I don't know him that well. Howard Cosell (NT-3135) I know. I know Mike Tyson. The LA Olympics 84 Mike Tyson sat next to me for much of the Olympics. I was there when Henry Tillman beat him not once but twice. And under amateur boxing rules. Beat Tyson I beat him fairly and squarely. One he didn't make Tyson's a nice kid Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) you answer the question then Howard Cosell (NT-3135) he he, he sat there rooting for the American team, which was the greatest amateur team ever put together better even than the one that you run in 52 in Finland, but he is a decent kid. And he was very close with breeland. Very close with everybody on that team Pernell Whitaker, Frank Tate, all the kids who were doing so well now in the professional ranks. I like Mike Tyson. I like him. But don't try to make something out of Mike Tyson. My young friend. Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) I'm only giving my opinion. Howard Cosell (NT-3135) No.you're right. you're right. Cus D'amato was Mike Tyson Robert Lipsyte Wait, what are we supposed to make of this? Because the heavyweight champion is in this society? Or at least we pay lip service to it is Mr. Man, he's some sort of role model. I mean, Joyce Carol Oates suggested that he should marry the fairy queen. But this is a guy who doesn't seem in control of his life. All he can do is go out there and, and and hit people harder. Should we care about this in in any kind of way? should we think about him as a role model? No, no? What should we think about it just as a brute, Howard Cosell (NT-3135) we shouldn't think about any athlete as a role model. How did we get into that position? Nobody knows this better than you. You've written about this. You've talked about in my ads, right on why world of sport, in my opinion, you wrote about sport, sports world and American dreamland. Robert Lipsyte It's really hard to come back to you after that. Ron Levao (NT-3135) I agree with that. By the way, let me just get into my two points here. It's a wonderful book. bestline I hope I'm running the word chakras. Robert Lipsyte I want to ask you what your feeling is how we should look at Tyson is just just as an athlete as a as a honest laborer going out there and doing a job? Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) Are we talking about inside the ring Robert Lipsyte inside the ring? Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) To be a great champion is only when a man does inside the ring with how he carries himself outside the ring too Robert Lipsyte he's not a great champion then in your book Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) Well, no, I didn't say that. Howard Cosell (NT-3135) But Floyd, you know it's true. Floyd Patterson (NT-3135) Well, let me put it this way. He has made some mistakes. Cus is not there to explain it to him. Like, let me give you an example. After he won that last fight with banks, I understand he went to the press conference the following day and said a lot of derogatory things to the press. I don't think he realized that it was because of the press. Why he was able to get $22 million, because of all the good writing they did about the more highs that they said. So because maybe one or two or three guys said something derogatory, he took it out in the whole press, Robert Lipsyte Floyd I'm afraid we're gonna have to leave it there. Floyd Patterson, Ron Levao Howard Cosell, thank you very much. See you at the fights. This is the 11th Hour. I'm Robert Lipsyte |
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Wide shot of the studio with guests and interview concludes.
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| 01:27:50 1670.88 |
close up Robert Lipsyte, he announces the show and introduces himself.
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| 01:27:56 1676.8 |
Show credits overlay scenes from the Tyson/Spinks heavyweight fight.
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| 01:28:35 1715.63 |
Funding for the show by announcer and overlay the Eleventh Hour graphic still.
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| 01:28:49 1729.85 |
Reel End.
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