1968TV TALK SHOWS
READ ANY DIRTY BOOKS LATELY? (PARTS I & II)
WITH GORE VIDAL, FATHER MORTON HILL, S.J.
DISCUSS PORNOGRAPHY, NOVELS WITH PORNOGRAPHIC CONTENT, "OFFENSIVE" SUBWAY AD FOR THE MOVIE "THE GRADUATE", BANNING BOOKS, GORE VIDAL SUPPORTS MORE MASTURBATION & HOMOSEXUALITY IN OUR OVERPOPULATED WORLD, RELIGIOUS PRESSURE GROUPS, CENSORING MEDIA TO PREVENT READERS FROM BECOMING RAPISTS, INSTITUTE OF MARRIAGE ANSWER QUESTION FROM AUDIENCE MEMBERS
(HF-YTV)
WITH GORE VIDAL, FATHER MORTON HILL, S.J.
DISCUSS PORNOGRAPHY, NOVELS WITH PORNOGRAPHIC CONTENT, "OFFENSIVE" SUBWAY AD FOR THE MOVIE "THE GRADUATE", BANNING BOOKS, GORE VIDAL SUPPORTS MORE MASTURBATION & HOMOSEXUALITY IN OUR OVERPOPULATED WORLD, RELIGIOUS PRESSURE GROUPS, CENSORING MEDIA TO PREVENT READERS FROM BECOMING RAPISTS, INSTITUTE OF MARRIAGE ANSWER QUESTION FROM AUDIENCE MEMBERS
(HF-YTV)
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David Susskind introduces episode guests: Father Morton Hill, Gore Vidal
David Susskind 0:01 There's a new freedom and literature in motion pictures in the theater, a freedom of sexual expression and a freedom of language. A lot of people welcome it and some people are very nervous about it. Tonight we're going to discuss it and I don't think we could have better guests to do so. First father Morton Hill, a Jesuit is the executive secretary of Operation Yorkville, a nationwide interfaith organization, working to counter the flow of obscene material to children and youth. Father Hill was recently appointed to the President's Commission on obscenity and pornography. Go over doll Our next guest is the well known playwright and author, a very close friend whose latest book Myra Breckinridge is fast becoming one of the most talked about novels in the country. Miss Duvall Vidal currently has a play weekend which is just opened on Broadway. |
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David Susskind:
Why is the President seen fit to have a commission on obscenity and pornography? Father Morton Hill 1:24 Because there is a serious problem, at least we think there is when I say we I mean operation your film, which is a community organization, its community it is Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Orthodox Mormon. We've been together five years and we've been confronting this problem of obscene material going to American youth and trying to bring it to the attention of the country. I don't know whether it's because of our efforts that there is a commission or not, but there is a commission. The bill was passed by the Senate by the House signed into law by the President and the Commission has been formed and will go into operation within a month. David Susskind 1:40 It's not the business of parents to prevent obscenity in pornography, anything detrimental to the uplift of the child and the development of the child isn't that the parental obligation and not the laws obligation? Father Morton Hill 1:55 Parents certainly have a great deal to do with their children. There's no doubt about this, that it's the parents right to educate the child as he wants the child to be educated. But in practice, Mr. Susskind parents are the last to know of any involvement in obscene material or in drugs as far as that goes. They don't have the child 24 hours a day and this material was available while the parents are absent in the school. In the street, anyplace except in the home Father Morton Hill 2:04 Gore. Are you troubled by the onslaught of pornography and obscenity? Gore Vidal 2:29 Well, I'm, I'm curious to know what pornography is. Let's start with a definition from the President's new commissioner here. And then we might move from there. What is pornography? Father Morton Hill 2:42 I couldn't speak Gore as the President's new commissioner, because the commission has not yet begun to function as one I can speak as one involved in the problem and give you my own concept of pornography. If you want to use this word. I would say it is material that has a four fold incitement number one, to experimentation with drugs, number two, to violence in all forms. Number three, to perversion in the many areas in which this word is used, and number four, to promiscuity, it's incitement to all four of these things. And it's found in almost all media, of communication, and it is directed chiefly to the immature to the young to the youth of the United States. And that's the reason we're concerned about it. Gore Vidal 3:36 Pornography by and large. That which addresses itself to sexual stimulation is not addressed to the young, but to those already hooked. People who are interested in ladies with leather boots and whips, I don't think you'll find the average member of a junior high school anything but rather appalled at this. This is a private taste. And I see no reason why those who enjoy this sort of, to me often depressing literature shouldn't have it. I think a larger issue to try to make little sense of this argument, of course, is freedom of speech. And this is something which your church has often been extremely militant and trying to fight and prevent the United States through various pressure groups the Legion of Decency. I remember how skillfully Cardinal Spellman saw to it, the Tennessee Williams baby doll was not generally released in the United States. And you must, you know, the country was begun with the idea that you had certain rights of expressing ourselves on many matters sexual political, what have you. You have every right to say that you don't like what's being written and to advise your parishioners not to read it that is equally a freedom in this country, but to try and to dictate through pressure groups such as the Legion of Decency in the movies, which is much better than it used to be, but it used to be one of the most dreadful single obstacles to making good films the United States. I think that you are setting yourself If I may say so using a generic you on a collision course with the Constitution and with the Bill of Rights, it may well be that you have when I think we're moving towards a certain kind of despotism, and even fascism in America, and there'll be many attempts of controls of what people say, those people who advise others to try this sexually to try that soon, it'll get so well, those who advise them to vote Republican may find themselves locked up, good Republican this year. So the whole thing gets down to what freedom? Do you have to express what you mean. And I think that it's quite clear under the Constitution that this freedom exists. And I'm very nervous about any attempts at curbing it and I'm very nervous about people determining what is pornographic after all. Some people think Lady Chatterley's Lover is other people, regardless of great work of literature. Yes. David Susskind 5:50 Could we come to specifics and off the theoretical? Would you take the motion picture of the graduate? Would you find that pornography? Would you find that obscene? Father Morton Hill 5:59 Are you asking me? No, I haven't seen it. I've seen the advertising for it. And I can tell you this, that the community found that, that the ads for the graduate in the New York City subway system in every train were objectionable, and they express themselves on this. Can I show the movie itself? The I haven't seen it, but David Susskind 6:19 we show the ad Gore so that you'll understand this ad was in the subway system of New York, it's an advertisement for the graduate. And I suppose what was objected to? would tell us Father, the picture, I suppose? |
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Susskind holds up an advertising billboard for the movie "The Graduate"
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Father Morton Hill 6:32
Well the ad was exhibited in a place where, at the time of the holiday season, you see the date here, December the 21st, when many children in the subway coming to the stores with their parents David Susskind 6:44 There are always on to go to school. Father Morton Hill 6:46 Right, but particularly this season. And secondly, as you say, a large number of people, young people going to school would see this, I'm not sure whether this is the air that was objecting to because David Susskind 6:57 yes it is I made sure that this was the ad that the your pressure group. And I use that because that's what it is. It's a group designed to do take action with respect to what you call pornography and obscenity Father Morton Hill 7:10 Our group is. The specific purpose, I would say is to alert parents to a problem. And then to urge them to express themselves to the proper authorities now in this case, would be the transit system that allowed this sort of thing to be put up now, as far as the movie is concerned, the movie, judging from reports on it is quite another thing and many people have found that to be an excellent movie it's that I'm talking about. David Susskind 7:35 Could we take something in the present public view would you take Myra Breckinridge Gore Vidal, his new novel, would you regard that as pornographic or obscene? Have you read it? Father Morton Hill 7:44 I haven't read it. I know nothing about it. In fact, my understanding is it was not to be discussed at this meeting David Susskind 7:51 the arrangement? Gore Vidal 7:53 I think that's a bit unfair. You haven't read Myra Breckinridge, but I've read the New Testament. So one of us is at a disadvantage. David Susskind 8:01 Stopping, stopping but hold your point, we'll come right back and go I will be back in a moment. |
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Interview resumes in Studio
David Susskind Gore, Your turn Gore Vidal Well, I just want to say that pornography in a literary sense, or I suppose the movies would be said to be that I'm giving a legal definition which incites people sexually excites them. Now, I think we mostly know that pornography, by and large, does not excite people to become rapists, which might be against the public interest. It incites them to masturbation. And this seems to be in an overpopulated world, not necessarily a bad thing. Also, I believe in dealing with pornography, that you say you want to keep it away from young people. Well, obviously I'd like to keep bad writing away from them. But they're free to look at everything. I believe that the more people know about what other people do you your church has a view of what is correct sexual behavior, which is eccentric to my view. However, there are many people who disagree with it. We are all by nature bisexual, we indulge in various combinations throughout life. It used to be thought that ideally man plus woman equals baby is what God intended. Well, but man plus woman equals baby equals famine, particularly in some of your parishes in South America. Now, in an overpopulated world, you're going to have to rethink what the family means and you've got to come right down to the basis of it. And I would think that as far as young people might get an idea About this and that sexually, I'm all for it. The usual thing is to keep the girl innocent until she's pregnant. And you explained to her about the pill. I think it's much better that she knows these things in advance. And it's good for people humanly to know what others feel what others do, there is an element of charity in this, I may not approve of what you do, you may not approve of what I do. But in i i Don't censure what you do. And I don't certainly like your pressure groups trying to censor our books and our films in the interests of your, considering some ideal human state, which I think is irrelevant to this. Father Morton Hill First of all, we don't censor anything. Secondly, Gore Vidal now let's get started with the first you were too far. We were off camera you were talking about that? You do indeed censor. This is, this is slightly Jes Whitaker, we don't censor, we just see to what other people do. This is what the Holy Office did in the 16th century. How do you use the Holy Office, the Holy Office, always maintained the church never sent anybody to the state, they simply turn them over to the local authorities who then burn them. This is precisely the same sort of argument that you draw people's attention to these things that you don't like and subways and then you see to it that some action is brought against a publisher or magazine or the transit system, as you were saying ominously, a few minutes ago, they would feel your wrath. Well, all I can say is watch out because there's a backlash coming. Father Morton Hill I read your article in the New review on pornography. And I had the idea that you were very well versed in one area of the problem that is to say the area dealing with hardcover books, expensive 1250 book I also had the impression that you were unaware of this problem in only on the areas and I wouldn't expect you to know the problem be aware of the problem in all the areas is too vast a problem one mind couldn't take it in Gore Vidal no but I went to school too. And I remember those mimeograph sheets that were handed around from from from boy to boy throughout the school as I think they probably go on forever. Father Morton Hill Yes. In other words, you feel that there is no problem and whatever obscenity there is you feel is harmless. Is that correct? Gore Vidal quite harmless? Yes, I feel it is it is debasing to the literary taste of young people. I would much rather they were reading Proust than those mimeographed handouts. But since television has come along, they don't seem able to read much of anything anyways, so I just perhaps maybe pornography will make it possible for them to read the New York Times, Heaven help us. must have a beginning somewhere? Father Morton Hill Well, I would say that there is much need for research as much room for research in this area. However, there has been some research done. In fact, only last week, I came across a piece of research that I didn't know about is to be a book called Burning ice by a doctor Lorang, a psychologist. And this doctor, a woman took samples of sampling opinion of 3000 students, Catholic, Protestant, urban country, children from all the states in the union. And she asked these youngsters to mention magazines and books that had effect, an effect on them. They mentioned these magazines, and they mentioned the books, and they mentioned the good effects and the bad effects. And the interesting thing is that many of these magazines that youngsters felt had a bad effect on them. The various magazines that we have been concerned about over a period of years now I'm not going to mention the names of them. But for example, one magazine 100% of the youngsters said had a bad effect another magazine 100% said it had a bad effect. Now when the youngsters themselves feel that 100% of these magazines have had a bad effect on them. It seems to me that this should give adults pause about giving you know this type of material Gore Vidal I am very nervous and asking a kid now what's had a bad effect on you this week, you know, you're apt to get any answer. It could be Ronald Reagan, it could be it could be anything. Father Morton Hill Well, this doctor Gore Vidal they're not that self regarding children and I'm not that that hipped on polls anyway Father Morton Hill this doctor went further and as I say the book is coming out you'll be able to read it but she got some specific reactions as to the meaning of bad effects. Now I wrote down a few of them here. Number one, this youngster wrote, I went out and got drunk. Number two. I tried getting drunk and smoke pot to see for myself. Number three, took LSD and got drunk number four took a bath with a girl David Susskind must have been after National Review. Great Scott. Father Morton Hill I hung around with motorcycle gangs gambled on next week's game because you get the odds and magazines. Those are a few Gore Vidal I must say this is one of the cleverest cop outs I've ever heard. get in trouble. I read it in a book that this is one. This is one way of eliminating all literature, I can see this coming. They don't like reading. So they said, if they're caught drunk, I read it in a book, Ernest Hemingway made me drunk. I'm not overwhelmed by that. I look forward to the book with great interest, because I like people who do research in this, but it is well known. And nobody has ever made any evidence that there is any causal link between the reading of we will say pornography, and crime. I think we all know that rape is by and large, are not literary minded. They tend to be activists, and not given to study. But when you say that a reading a book might give somebody an idea to get drunk. Well, that that sounds to me amazing. Since our generation, at least, we're known as the juice generation. Apparently, they're a bit drier than we were. You didn't need to read a book for that. And I would be the last person in the world to start blaming literature for for giving people those ideas, just taking that bath with a girl, I must say it was it was pretty good. Were they I wonder if they were caught at it. David Susskind That was probably the National Review that brought that on. I'll have to pause. We'll be back in a moment. |
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Interview resumes in Studio
David Susskind Your question, Audience Question how come we only hear of this happening in the United States? I think in Europe, it's more open. And you don't hear all this. You don't hear rapes? You don't you don't hear so much sexual crimes. I think that that it should be open more here. Like in Europe, I think that we that the United States is far behind in this way. David Susskind you mean, no censorship at all. Gore Vidal In fact, you've got a quite an interesting point there that in Denmark, just last year, they removed all laws about pornography, they immediately flooded the bookstand. And now they can't sell them. People lost interest. This is one way of handling it. But it is not the American way. We we must fight sin and the more severe we are, the better we are and more worthy in the sight of God. David Susskind Father Hill do you have a comment Father Morton Hill My only comment on that would be that if you allow complete restrict complete freedom in all media. I don't see why you should not allow complete freedom as far as the use of drugs is concerned. Why why? make any distinction there? If you're going to allow license allow complete license? Now if you allow a nation to be saturated with obscene material and with drugs. What is going to be the result? You know, these are two major factors in crime the two sides. Gore Vidal This isn't true. Who says it's a major thing in crime? Just because you say it so Father Morton Hill Thank you for the question. I'll answer that question. Gore Vidal I'd love to hear. Father Morton Hill There's a criminologist in Washington by the name of Carl Parian. Who is with the Senate subcommittee on juvenile delinquency, you know, he sees these statistics coming in from all over the United States. And he feels that there are three levels in delinquency or in crime. The first level is involvement on the part of youth in obscenity, the second is involvement in drugs. And the third level is involvement in actual delinquent behavior. Now, sometimes it's a more direct connection many times in fact, we had a detective on radio last night, where he mentioned that, in the case of criminals, Sex Criminals, almost always they find obscene material with them. Now, these would be cases where drugs would not be involved. This would be direct involvement. Gore Vidal I'll say the statistics, I've looked at them, and I did that piece which you've read on pornography, and I've thought a great deal about it. There are no statistics that add up which can prove an a causal link between sexual crimes and the reading of pornography. Of course, it's a very difficult causal link to prove is obviously somebody somewhat unbalanced, who's going to commit rape, might very well like to look at a Dirty Picture, as you would call it. On the other hand, there was I seem to remember back in the 30s, there was a rapist who was actually they proved that he was set off in abusing a little girl of about six by the Campbell's tomato soup. Girl, that little red face girl, which is apparently obsessed him. Now, does that mean that Campbell's tomato soup can use that particular ad of that little fat red face girl who knows what is going to set anybody off? But if you get into the area been saying great tolerantly that books are rather far down on your list and you're much more worried about things that go around the playground, and dirty photographs. If you start in one place, you will keep on going with censorship. And I think it ought to be nipped in the bud right now. And otherwise, there is a considerable collision coming Father Morton Hill you feel there's no problem. Is that correct? Gore Vidal I feel there's absolutely I'll tell you what the only problem that I might all be in agreement with you on is physical violence. You must remember that sex though it may offend your morality, and your beliefs. It is really a business between two adults or to whatever, to choose to do that. And it really is not. The Holy Office must not ask the Spanish government to come in on that one. You must leave people alone sexually. That is your muddling the categories violence, however, it was actions against other people's good against their health, against their violence to their prison. I would agree with you that there is an enormous amount of violence, particularly on television and all directions. This is the most violent society in the western. Porno violence right, we have one area of agreement there but muddling sex and violence. This is the most my only in the United States. May I tell you do this violence and sex are the same phrase. Everybody else thinks that everyone thinks there's a difference, though, between sex and violence. Here, it's absolutely the same thing unless it's duly sanctified. Father Morton Hill Well, would you agree Gore Vidal I would make a separation. We came here really to talk about I gather about pornography, though I'm perfectly willing to talk about violence. And as far as pornography goes, it is outside being anti social. And it does not lead as far as anybody's been able to prove to violent acts against other persons. It's a rather solitary and rather a sad business, hardcore pornography, which leads to private abuse. Father Morton Hill Well, this, I'm sure could be demonstrated by reading samples of material that show the the conviction that it's a joy to take a human life, it's a joy to inflict pain on others. Now there are there are constantly recurring passages to this effect. And it runs through the this whole paperback industry, the joy of inflicting pain on others the joy of killing even so that I just want to go along with you as a problem. Now, the same is true of drugs. The there's a whole area of obscenity today, especially the underground press, I had one that came from California sent to New York children, and this newspaper from beginning to end, urged the use of psychedelic drugs. Gore Vidal Well, it has yet remains to be seen whether this may not be better than the whiskey that the older people were drinking. It may very well prove it seems quite clear that contemporary life is so depressing for most people that they're going to need some sort of anodyne, and rather than whiskey, I would certainly rather see them on marijuana and I say that completely disinterested because I don't happen to like it. But those who take it are relative don't make as much of a mess as those who get drunk on whiskey. Father Morton Hill Well if you believe in marijuana Mr. Vidal fine, go right aheand and encourage it. I talk about Gore Vidal I urge nothing but I don't believe in preventing others from doing those things which cause no harm to other people. And this might be something to bear in mind under the category caritas. David Susskind We take a very momentary hiatus. We'll be right back. |
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Interview resumes in studio
David Susskind Your question father, Audience Question Mr. Vidal, though, Father Hill, and I perhaps are of different persuasion, he's Roman Catholic, I happen to be a priest of the Greek Orthodox Church. And throughout history, we may have had some fundamental differences about certain positions. I find it extremely easy to be able to cooperate and work with Father Hill in this area. Because I'm very much disturbed by by the fact that the statement that you made previously that that people with black leather belts, concern only those who have a kind of a taste for this. This sort of goes against our whole concept of what conditioning and what education is for a child. In terms of certain levels of development by which a child is led to acquire certain concepts of life that will enable him to fit into society with a sense of the dignity of human life and all of these values that have been quite precious to man, for many, many centuries. And the problem is that always a civilization seems somehow to come to the end of paved road, when we can get the kind of pornographic scenes, for example, that you see in the, the Pompeii and vases and this kind of thing that Gore Vidal Pompeii was, was rather a healthy and vigorous civilization. Now don't don't give this my period. I won't hear a word against that. And they had a much more honest, direct idea about sex, none of which was dreamed of, by those followers of St. Paul, who, alas, are still with us and still militating against man's natural energies Audience Question yeah, but we're talking about essentially, Pompeii, we're talking. We're talking about classical Greece, we're talking about Babel, the Babylonian civilization, David Susskind have you got a question, we are running out of time? Audience Question I have a question. And the question is precisely this, that does not every generation have a responsibility for the education of its younger citizens, that involves the transmittal of certain age, old, Venerable customs and mores, if you would, and patterns of social behavior that have been tested and that have been found to be of some value in in the production of valuable citizens for another generation. And that, that which you claim appeals only to the man that likes black leather belts, does not it appeals to an entire to an entire generation that is exploring a world Gore Vidal that seems to be more of a sermon than a question and a very worthy one. But you're making the point that we'd hand on our tribal knowledge to one another, indeed we do. But so far, you have not questioned one single first assumption, nor has our friend here, about what kind of a society we should have in a world that's overpopulated in which your church is dragging its feet very badly, in which 14,000 people starve to death every day. And Pope Paul talks about, we must have more visitors to the banquet of life, unquote, that unhappy phrase. So we must begin to see first of all, you are saying the sanctity of the home? I'm sure we the next thing we'll hear. But we have to say do we need marriage? Do we want marriage now? Shouldn't we limit the number of people allowed to be born? I'm going back to first premise is your acting as though they're all agreed upon? And we must remove black leather belts because they're untidy? Audience Question No, we're not saying that in the least. And that is not the concern here. But we're concerned with a distorted viewpoint of life that you do not hold and that you do not consider good literature, or good art or good anything. And that it precisely it conveys to young people, a distorted image of life that does not exist. Gore Vidal Well, a young person so easily affected by a work of pornography would be a very odd duck, indeed, who was going to have trouble anyway, people are more resilient than that. First of all, most young people are extremely conformist. They will always act more or less out what their group wants them to be. And they will, then we don't have to worry about them. There are a few oddballs that are obviously going to end up raping somebody. And I don't think that your censoring of books as happy a thought as it is to many people in the United States, to be able to say no, you cannot publish this book. Because I think often, often, very often, when the Church Militant over here gets ready on little censorship against pornography. They're really worried about censoring things which may shake people's faith, which they regard really as an I always come down to that as being the center of any argument about censorship. And when you get into that, you'd have to discard all the 18th century founders of this country. Audience Question This is not at all the point. The point is that a child originally starts eating baby food, because he cannot consume hard meat. You're expecting a youngster of 12 13 14 to be able to have the moral discernment of an adult. Gore Vidal I'm not expecting anything. Look at a 12 a 13 year old should be told everything that there is to know about sex, if he's interested. And if he's going to read it in unpleasant little pornography, that's too bad. I'd rather have him read it in other books, but I want him to know everything but because that is the beginning of understanding other people he does this he does not going to run out and become a rapist because he's read that a man actually went to bed with a woman or actually got into a bathtub with a girl my golly, Audience Question well, this may lead was a homosexual experience with another boy, Gore Vidal what's wrong with that in an overpopulated world? in an overpopulated world? Audience Question What's wrong with that? Gore Vidal Yes, give me one argument and God knows the Greek church as well. Audience Question You've mixed your periods a little bit Gore Vidal the periods. They current metropolitan of Greece has been arrested for that. But then, Audience Question exactly. He's been arrested because of a perverted act. Gore Vidal this has been going on For many years and Audience Question humanity as well, this is precisely what we're saying, and that we cannot in any way encourage young boys into this kind of relationship. Because we know the scientific studies of, of homosexuality is pointed out that, that this is a kind of an interrupted ego development. It's a Gore Vidal I think you're on very shaky ground, Audience Question I'm not at all on shaky ground. Gore Vidal I've just come from Athens, where the church is much involved in that, and I can only assume that you're in favor of the Giunta. Audience Question It's got nothing to do with my politics. It's got to do with homosexuality, it tendencies of a bishop who should not have been a bishop in the first place. Gore Vidal Yes, well, Audience Question we're not condoning that. Gore Vidal I would see absolutely nothing. Nothing wrong with it Audience Question this is precisely the kind of a world that we're trying to create where there's nothing wrong for a young child of 9 10 to become encouraged in homosexual practices Gore Vidal who is encouraging anybody I'm talking about people being told about everything, you have your own narrow views of what is correct sexual behavior. I happen to disagree with it. And I think we have a great many people who do you have every right to propagandize from the pulpit and give us the same right to propagandize with books. I certainly am not going to try to shut down your church is appalling as I find your argument, I will just simply try to counter them and literature I'm certainly not going to organize something like our friend here to censor works and tear down the billboards of the graduate out of the out of the city transit system. this is too much. Audience Question You are dealing with young children whose impressions are being formed and I'm sure you wouldn't encourage your own children into homosexuality Gore Vidal really try there but neither one of us at the moment is dealing with young children we're talking about ideas David Susskind Gentleman I'm sorry we've reached the end of our time but we haven't fully explored the subject I wonder if you both come back and have another go. We thank you very much. Back in a moment for goodnight. Come back with us after this message. |
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Susskind wraps up show
David Susskind That's our show for tonight. I hope you liked it and I hope you'll be back with us again next week at the same time to learn Goodnight. |
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Episode credits
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NEW EPISODE - Susskind brings both guests back
David Susskind Hello A little while back we had a fascinating chat on pornography of sanity and related matters. Our guests then our guest tonight because we didn't quite complete. Our guests are Gore Vidal, the well known playwright, author whose latest book, Myra Breckinridge is fast becoming one of the best sellers in the country and certainly one of the most talked about novels. Mr. Vidal's play weekend has just opened on Broadway and father Morton Hill. Jesuit is the executive secretary of Operation Yorkville, a nationwide organization, interfaith, which works to counter the flow of obscene material to children and youth. Father Hill was recently appointed to the President's Commission on obscenity and pornography. David Susskind I just I make an apology to Father Hill He pointed out to me that I made it sound as if this was entirely backed by his church, this group and indeed it is another David Susskind faith. It's unfortunately. It's all churches. Father Morton Hill I read your article gore. And the way you and I differ, I would say is this you are a secularist and I am a theist, by a secularist. I mean, one who presents from God and I noticed this in the way you talk about marriage, you talk about marriage as a tribal entity, you do not talk about it as a as a sacrament, you do not talk about it as a lasting Union, in the Judeo Christian concept as something sacred. True in this way, we differ. And we differ in other words, in a philosophy, we different basic principles. Now, we ought to keep this in mind or any discussion we have in things that can concern sex, either directly or indirectly, Gore Vidal which is why I said it. I said at the beginning that we should go back to first principles rather than assuming that we were in any agreement, basically, David Susskind would you agree that pornography would ever get a definition of it? The Supreme Court, I think, would you quarrel with its definition, Father hill about appeal to the prurient, and without Father Morton Hill Well the Supreme Court has never defined pornography, they have instituted four tests, four distinct tests. Now, I don't want to go into those tests now, because they're very confusing. And the court is confused as to the language of the court is highly confused. So this is this is one of the problems. This is the reason we have a problem of obscenity because David Susskind What I tried to do the last time we got together was to find some instances in the motion picture in the theater in books that you think are clearly pornographic. I mean, I'm not talking about some illicit little printing press in a basement in Philadelphia, and I don't know the title, and neither does Gore or anyone else. I'm talking about books that the people are reading or films that they're going to see. Are there any currently that you regard as pornographic? Father Morton Hill I tried to explain in the very beginning of this broadcast, that we are not censors, we don't get on any list of books, a list of movies and say these are condemned. And these are approved when David Susskind you saw that. Right on ad for the graduate. You said, That's obscene. That's pornographic Father Morton Hill no, we didn't. David Susskind You said Please, transit authority, pull it down. Father Morton Hill Let me explain this. We have an office, we have a weekly radio program. Everybody knows in the metropolitan area, what operation you're insane. Now, we started getting telephone calls from every direction about this ad. We took a look at the ad. A number of us looked at it priest, Minister, Rabbi orthodox Mormon, we all looked at it. We compared all feelings with the response of the community. Now, once we have Gore Vidal What's the next step is what I want to know. You've looked at something and you don't approve it. Now what is your next step for action? Because presumably you exist for action Father Morton Hill This is after the ad is up. This is not before its up. So therefore, it's not censorship. Censorship would be before it's up, right. The community Gore Vidal censorship is a post censorship and you want to play as on and as ordered to be shut down. That is censorship. Father Morton Hill Post censorship is enforcement of law, pre censorship and censorship. In other words, any action before release a censorship of any action after release, Gore Vidal I think semantically speaking, censorship does exist, even after the the thing is out. And you determine for one reason or another, that it is against the law or wild pending, this happens with books all the time there used to happen when they would be seized, and then a court would have to go through where they are, were they not obscene, and meanwhile, they were unable to sell them. Father Morton Hill The meaning of the word center though, Gore Vidal any case you you act to have that sign removed, yes or no. Father Morton Hill We expressed the opinion of the community to the proper authorities. We chant Yes. Community. Yes. Gore Vidal You know, last for that resigned to be removed. Okay. Father Morton Hill Right. Do you object to that procedure? Gore Vidal A you it's a free country, you can ask for anything. I just hope they don't do as you do, as you suggest. Father Morton Hill Why? Gore Vidal Because I saw nothing objectionable in that ad. Father Morton Hill Well, that may not have been the ad was several ads and I don't know Gore Vidal I assure you father David Susskind I asked the producer of the movie, you know, embassy, I know. I said tell us give me the ad. That set the father's organization objected to and it was taken down Gore Vidal which says Benjamin do you find me undesirable? Oh, no, Mrs. Robinson, I think you're the most attractive of all my parents friends. Well, this is Father Morton Hill not when I get from this one. Gore Vidal On to bed with a friend of his parents right. Now. I don't call this much better with somebody he knows and with a stranger, I would think you have to begin somewhere. I found the movie rather moral and rather funny and rather touching and certainly unadventurous. I can't imagine anybody going out and there's no question next to somebody. Father Morton Hill There's no question in the movie. In fact, the reports on it's an excellent movie, an outstanding movie. It's a question of the community reaction to that ad people But felt it was obscene because it gave youngsters the an idea that they didn't want thrm yo have Gore Vidal and you then saw fit as the Holy Office to see to it that the secular arm acted Father Morton Hill when I when you say I, Gore Vidal we say we we interface the interface oh this way well you're not the community now don't start identifying yourself with that you are a group of clergymen of various faiths, clergy and laymen and laymen. All right. But it still isn't a majority of the 8 million people in these five boroughs. So don't speak for them just speak as one group with a particular bee in it's bonnet David Susskind Father have you seen the movie? Father Morton Hill No, I haven't? Gore Vidal I must say you are uncorrupted by the text tonight. This is an ideal situation David Susskind wouldn't it be relevant to see the motion picture? Father Morton Hill No have nothing to do. We're talking about the head, not the picture. But two completely different things. An ad and a movie are two different things. David Susskind But if the ad was genetically related to the movie, its substance its essence its values, and the picture has been hailed every hand might not the ad be sufferable has nothing to do with it. Part of your job to see the movie. Gore Vidal Now suppose somebody had not read Myra Breckinridge Father Morton Hill I haven't read it David Susskind and you don't intend to read it. Father Morton Hill I have no reason to read I read a book when I have many, many reasons to read it. I have no reason to read. Now. Suppose I read the reviews on this book. And after reading the reviews on this book. My feeling would be that this is the last book I'd ever read. David Susskind It might not as a specialist on pornography and obscenity might not be an obligation of your Jesuit function to read the book. Father Morton Hill No no obligation whatsoever? No. Gore Vidal But how could you censor it or post censor it? Father Morton Hill As I explained, we don't censor books, Gore Vidal just just things advertising. Father Morton Hill We don't censor advertising we express we can express opinion, just as you can David Susskind what other opinions expressed beyond the ad and of the graduate in the subway system. What else has your organization interfaith expressed itself on? Father Morton Hill Well, we have expressed ourselves on the occasion of certain Supreme Court decisions on things that we felt were against the feeling of the community with a decision comes through approving things that the community has reacted to. And if the court gives a rule which is unintelligible to the lawyer to the prosecutor, we have on occasion, express your opinion about the vagueness of a Supreme Court test. As a developer, Gore Vidal I love the way you refer to the community. I wish I had that confidence with my constituency, which might be Father Morton Hill this is a word that I noticed to be completely lacking in your article, there was no even reference to the impact of obscene material on community. And the on the other hand, Gore Vidal No, I talked a good deal about society and a good deal about tribe, which I think is which puts us into a better perspective, whether it was the tribe of Moses, we're all tribal. Is it hard to change their habits? Father Morton Hill I wondered why you use that word of the family tribe? Gore Vidal well what indeed is it but that Father Morton Hill it's a it's a primitive word. I mean, we use the word and it Gore Vidal is a primitive institution, which at the moment is seriously beleaguered, and it needs a lot of intelligent thinking about Father Morton Hill its own word, there's no loving it. When you speak of a tribe you don't think of affection and love that should be in a family? Gore Vidal Well, that is a very, that is a wide question. I'd like to take the point even further and simply say that I'd like to see to it if one could regulate a good society that we limit population, that we have a sort of sexual immigration act on how many people can be born, you know, a given moment in a community Father Morton Hill I'm surprised or that you're talking about this population explosion, when in today's times was a big piece on the front page that the population of the United States has declined. The growth of population has declined 20% in a five year period, and the population is dropping. Gore Vidal Yes, that's right. I must say I talked to a Monsignor about this. And I did live in Rome at the Vatican who gave me the most racist answer, because I was saying we've got to do something about birth control and cut population. Why he said but don't you realize that means that the yellow and the brown people will take over this was a real great hearted Monsignor Irish by the way, but stationed at the Vatican and I'm not worried about the Yellow Peril we are overpopulated every country is I am over a decline in population look at these cities they're unlivable nobody can live in New York City within a comfort you know whole thing is out of the human scale. And yet your church gala goes on its way bring more babies, somehow something will happen and if they die in childbirth, they'll make lovely little angels around the Godhead. You know, I regard is this most silliest of tribalism and the most dread superstitions get Father Morton Hill Let me ask you something Do you believe in the family? Do you believe in marriage as a permanent institution, one man, one woman living together for life? Gore Vidal No, I believe in men and I believe in women. And I believe in unions. I believe in love. And I believe in affection. I believe in sex. And I believe that all these things can happen should happen. I preached love to the world, but I certainly don't believe that the family exists for only one purpose, which is having children. I completely agree with you there. But by and large, most people shouldn't have them. I think in your mission, you discover that as much as I do in mind. Unfortunately, they do happen sometimes egged on by that by their religion, but the result is that they're great. Many unwanted children come into the world that there's nothing much to be done about them. And not only are many countries starving, but we've got a country now that we can hardly live in from the ghettos and Newark to New York to across the country. And if you just blindly think there should be more and more and more of this, you are going against a lot of opinion and the church. David Susskind Gentleman, sorry if I want to say no, no, we have to pause. We'll be back in an instant |
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David Susskind Yes, sir, your question, Audience Question Mr. Susskind the problem of pornography if there is one is a very vast one. I don't think we can cover it here tonight. But I'd like to ask a two pointed question to both of our speakers here. Mr. Vidal. First of all, do you have a definition of pornography? Gore Vidal I can only go by what the courts tell us? Well, I would Audience Question No, I want your own opinion, the way you well. Gore Vidal Is it to be used in a pejorative sense? Or is it to be used just as a term? I would say that there is certain kinds of writing which is written more or less with the intention of creating sexual stimulation? Audience Question Is it bad stimulation or good? Gore Vidal I find it absolutely indifferent people are stimulated a great deal of the time anyway. Yeah. And if this affects them one way or the other, I don't see anything bad in it. No, Audience Question well, Mr. Vidal, you stated before that you see no evidence, there is no evidence, I think you said that pornography is bad or deleterious to human growth.I'm a behavioral scientist. I'm not interested in a lot of your humor and your flippancy here tonight, you're very gifted with words. And you're making an ad hominem argument. You keep bringing religion in, I don't see where this Gore Vidal The whole basis, Audience Question can I stop you?This is not what this is not what I what a scientist should do. Now, I feel that you should address yourself to the problem without bringing in religion, be it? Gore Vidal One minute, I appreciate you. Do you mind it before you continue one second, then you can you can continue your gravity? Audience Question Wait a minute hold it? Gore Vidal I bring in religion because our sexual codes come from the law of Moses and from St. Paul, do you know you are not going to make any sense about what is the correct sexual behavior until you examine the religious origin of it? And and don't pretend you're behaviorism as any sort of science use did you stay to Christian Heresy. Audience Question Well, you're tearing a lot of things down tonight. You might as well do that, too. I'm a scientist. And I'm trying to be very objective, you say that there is no evidence for the fact that pornography, whatever that is, you can't define it. We just can't define it that which causes like you have evidence to show that this is deleterious to human growth. Now, where is the evidence? Gore Vidal There was no evidence, you're just saying what I've said. Audience Question Are there studies to show that this is not deleterious? Gore Vidal There are there have been studies going on? Oh, my lifetime on the subject. Audience Question Would you quote me one? Gore Vidal Oh, there's a marvelous one of Warfield about 1948. Audience Question Who is Warfield, Gore Vidal William M. Warfield, you should check up on him if you're a behaviorist. Audience Question Well, who is he? Gore Vidal Well, he is. He is a professor who is I think he is dead now. master's violence is discipline was psychology using? Yes. And he has now dead and I suggest you read it very carefully. But I don't know. First of all, don't proudly say you're an objective scientist. When you've come on with so many emotion charged world, Audience Question you've done a bit of that yourself Gore Vidal And so I don't claim to be a scientist. I'm an artist. Audience Question Well, you're an artist. But maybe I'm just as human as you are. Oh, what I'd like to know is Gore Vidal welcome to The Club. Audience Question you're very good at this. This is a red herring. There are studies to show that children pre school children exposed to violence on television will repeat this type of behavior to people around them. These studies have been shown at Stanford I'd like to ask you for equal evidence. Now you're going back I don't know how many decades to this study, which I, Warfield it sounds like a singer to me. I don't know who you're referring to do you have anything else that you can refer to? Gore Vidal Well, I keep reading about the subject, as do you through the popular press and Time Magazine, which keeps us all up to date on every discipline. You are quietly muddling the issue and most of the illogical way we started first on sex, then you move to violence now, not quite right. And we have agreed earlier, the good father and I that that that much of what's in the air now does create an atmosphere of violence, which is extremely deleterious to the growth of young children and to their attitudes towards one another. Audience Question can I ask for the hill? What do you feel, sir, can be done by way of a scientific study, which would examine the content, the distribution and the outcome of these materials you call pornographic? Father Morton Hill That's a good question, Doctor. Course The study would take a lot of money. If I had $250,000 to spend on a study, the way I would spend, it would be this I spent $50,000. To investigate the fourfold incitement of pornography, to drugs to violence, to prevention, to promiscuity, I designed for researchers, four separate persons, each one to take the production of pornography over one calendar month, and study the incitement, just the incitement to drugs in this month, just the incitement to violence so that we could present this graphically, graphically to an audience as this, that would be project number 1 $50,000. Number two, I would use $100,000 to take several cities in the United States like Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, and perhaps Dallas, for large cities and for different areas, and examine the production and distribution of obscene material and ask one question, to whom is this directed? How many children does this reach what reaches them and how many are reached by this material that is material in all media? This would be a study that would go say about six months. Now, the third study that I would make would be into effects, I would go to the youth of the United States and ask them how media is affecting them, the entertainment media, what are the outstanding films that they have seen that have helped them with good effects? And what all those good effects? Also? What are the things that have hurt them? What magazine has hurt them what the movie has hurtthem? And ask them for these effects, then I would collate that data. Now I'd have that study done by, say six or eight behavioral scientists over a period of six months. The three studies together I think we present presentation, Audience Question He's doing it again, Audience Question Mr. Vidal this research design where you are proposing, Mr. Vidal, do you have anything objective in the form of a scientific reseach project that we can work with? Do you have anything that you can work with? Gore Vidal I would like he wants to raise $250,000 to give you boys some employment, I'd like to raise 500,000 to examine the psyche of sensors. And I would start with behaviors in Greece. David Susskind Mr. Well, you've had ample time. Really, please. Father, I want to ask you a question. If the first section for which you've allocated $50,000 And the good men of science have finished their work. And it turns out that 95% of the young people studied the immediate after effect, in 95% of the cases of pornography was sexual stimulation, which immediate result was masturbation. Would you say well, that's not too bad considering overall statistics. 95% just went somewhere privately and please themselves, would you continue to be disturbed? I mean, do you think you're a little bit better is still necessary? Father Morton Hill well this is a gratuitous assumption David Susskind It is not a gratuitous assumption, Father Morton Hill I suppose. Now we do a study and 95% of the youngsters who read this particular confession magazine say that there was a bad effect and that this bad effect was simply and only exclusively masturbation. David Susskind Because this is what happened to me. Yeah. Okay. Now, how would you feel about that? Father Morton Hill Would I feel that this should David Susskind would your vigilante committee still be a Father Morton Hill What do you mean by vigilante committee Gore Vidal read your modest committee but I do answer David Susskind to the graduate you know, the kind of thing I mean, when I say vigilante committee that brings pressure on on various units of our society, yeah, to withdraw things or to prohibit things. Gore Vidal Would you prohibit something which led into a solidarity action which does not anti social. Father Morton Hill Well, as I said before you and I differ in this respect that you are a secularist, and I am a theist, you don't believe in divine law? And I do all right now Divine Law is involved here am I? Am I to countenance something which stimulates youngsters to violate that the law of God? Of course not. How could I? Alright, now you're asking me as a person, what our organization to this viewpoint? I don't know, I'd have to propose it to him. Gore Vidal It's an interesting area, because by and large reading is a solitary act, and any consequence of it is apt to be fairly immediate. And that's that well, so if you cannot prove that people make anti social acts, then I think you are in a very peculiar ground wanting to censor other secularists because there's many of us, perhaps more than they are of you theiests Father Morton Hill this hypothesis is purely an hypothesis because I am certain that there would be other effects because I know these teenagers are sex publications, and I know what they inclined to they there is a fourfold incitement not simply to sex, but to drugs, to violence and to perversion. Gore Vidal Well, I think it's a good writer who can get all four in. David Susskind We're running out of time. Can I ask you a final question? If in my day, there was spicy detective, and there were French postcards, and there were some dirty books. And there was true confessions that we had a variety of iterations. And we have goofed in civilization badly as all eternity will discover, but not on the level of having been oversexed or driven to violence because we read to confessions, isn't the business of the parent as it was my parents business to take care of the household and not the business of your institution and similar ones? Aren't they invariably, when not ridiculous, quite evil? Father Morton Hill Well, as I explained before, on this program, from talking to parents, David, they are the last to know that they youngsters are involved either with pornography or with narcotics David Susskind I know, Father, I know what's being read in my house. I don't approve of it all Father Morton Hill in your house. What about outside your house? Gore Vidal How much reading all those children doing, David? It's my impression, they don't read anything. David Susskind No, they do some reading. And what they read outside the house, of course, I'm not totally familiar and other I can gather from the exposure of their individual psyches around the table and in the house, that they are not afflicted with a terrible pornographic virus. Gore Vidal Anyway, I think the father has made the good point that the parents don't know and we should probably hand this over to the police. Because they'll know. David Susskind Father, do you have a final thing? Father Morton Hill No, except that I don't understand this last. This last comment of yours. Gore Vidal Any pressure group which tries to get the secular arm to respond to its own private views of morality, sooner or later invokes the police invoke censorship limits freedom of speech, and you have a handsome country like Franco Spain, or a good 12th century society which I'm not about to see recreated here and are beautiful west Father Morton Hill Well my only answer to that Mr. Vidal was that apparently you don't believe in law. Obscenity law is law just as much as any other area Gore Vidal we have both got finished saying that the Supreme Court is extremely ambiguous on this subject. Nobody knows what the law of obscenity is. So don't say that I'm against law just before the just before the program ends. We all just a critical tactic. I do indeed. Believe in law. Careful on that one. David Susskind Gentlemen, I'm sorry. We have reached the end of our time father Hill Gore Vidal Thank you. Stick around. There's more show |
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