19841980s TV SHOWS
"IS THE SEXUAL REVOLUTION OVER? THE RETURN TO CHASTITY"
WITH SUE ATCHESON, BOB POLLAK, ROBERT MASELLO, SARA NELSON, PAT SKIPPER
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WITH SUE ATCHESON, BOB POLLAK, ROBERT MASELLO, SARA NELSON, PAT SKIPPER
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| 00:59:34 0 |
"IS THE SEXUAL REVOLUTION OVER? THE RETURN TO CHASTITY"
WITH SUE ATCHESON, BOB POLLAK, ROBERT MASELLO, SARA NELSON, PAT SKIPPER |
| 00:59:34 0.41 |
SUSSKIND INTRODUCES SHOW
David Susskind Good evening, I'm David Susskind. And the sexual revolution is over and one night stands had become passe. That at any rate is what my guest tonight have to say. They feel it's time to go up and look for something more fulfilling in their relations with the opposite sex will begin after this pause. |
| 00:59:54 20.49 |
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| 00:59:55 21.77 |
INTERVIEW BEGINS:
David Susskind The catchphrase of the sexual revolution was if it feels good, do it. Well, today the phrase might well be if it feels good. Watch out. My guests say that recreation sex is out. Commitment is in and they feel good about it. Please meet them now. First, Sue Atcheson is an art director for a large advertising agency in San Francisco, California. Bob Pollack heads a television commercial production house and also owns a limousine service in New York City. He was married very young, and his divorced. Pat Skipper grew up in Florida. He came to New York to be an actor, and he is engaged to be married in a few months. Robert Masello writes the monthly his column in the magazine Mademoiselle, and he has written a book titled What do men want from women. And finally, Yale graduate Sara Nelson is a writer, editor and translator, she has lived in New York for six years. There's a new conservatism in the country. Easy sex is out. Commitment is in before, do you agree with that? Robert Masello To a certain extent, I mean, recreational sex maybe happened a fair amount of it still goes on? Because that's how people ultimately decide who they're going to make a commitment to. I wouldn't say that people have ultimately stopped. Sara Nelson They haven't stopped having sex Robert Masello I read about it all the time. Pat Skipper No, slow down to that. I would say, Sara Nelson yeah. I mean, I think the thing is recreational. I mean, I think people have a different attitude toward what sex is supposed to be. And and so I don't think that necessarily recreational sex leads to commitment. Robert Masello I think there are a fair number of liaisons more than one time they did Sue Atcheson Now define terms over here. recreational sex is promiscuity Sue Atcheson one nightstands stands David Susskind one nightstand stands. two or three nights? Sue Atcheson Or two or three? It's very light hearted, without without commitment? Wouldn't you agree with that definition? Robert Masello Well, after two or three nights, it's a little tough to actually make the commitment. You don't know right? Sue Atcheson Now, this word commitment, does that mean marriage going steady, I love you, only you for dating. I will take Robert Masello I don't think anybody gets pinned anymore. That I know of. Bob Pollack That's not true in terms of pins. But in the high school age group. What I heard not too long ago, was that the high school ring companies for years are going out of business. And the last three or four years, they're booming. So that says something about the old tradition of giving away your ring to your steady at that age group. And in my time, I remember the my seniors used to do it. And I didn't do it. And now it's happening again. So that does indicate something, wouldn't you say? Sue Atcheson Yes. But I'm still trying to find out what commitment means you are not living the previous existence? Sara Nelson Well, I don't think commitment necessarily has to mean marriage, which is I think, I mean, that's a generational thing. I think, in the previous generation or two generations back, that didn't mean that and that was the only the only sort of form of commitment. And I think there are other kinds of commitment. I don't. I mean, sometimes they're married, sometimes they're living together arrangements. Sometimes they're, you know, going what you said going steady. I mean, nobody says they're going steady, but has a kind of, you know, I know monogamous you know, Robert Masello I think when we say committment, we mean we're not going to be seeing anybody else Bob Pollack exclusive monogamous Pat Skipper Also, I think one of the big differences that people the willingness to commit is something that it seems to me is something very different now. Because before, you know, a few years ago, it was it was not even a desire. No, no. Robert Masello You Don't be embarrassed about having an epilogue. Right? At one time. It was such as old fashioned notion that if you wanted to make a commitment, you were considered some kind of, you know, relic, and you wouldn't you might not have expressed it. But I think today, you certainly can. It doesn't reflect badly on you at all it reflects well, if anything? Sure, well, Sue Atcheson the period that you've lived through recently, recreational sex easy sex. Was that a failure? Because it didn't lead in many cases to real companionship, real intimacy? Sara Nelson Well I think people thought that they didn't want real companionship and real intimacy and I think people thought they just wanted to hang out and you know, if it felt good, do it like you just said, and I think they sort of figured out that that wasn't what they wanted. And if that wasn't what they wanted, then having a lot of casual sex with a lot of different people was not going to get them. It wasn't gonna work. I mean, it's sort of like, as much as I never thought I'd say this, I mean, sort of like your mother was right. But you know that that once you come to the conclusion that you're really, you know, you don't want to be alone for your whole life, or you want to have some kind of relationship, that means something, it just doesn't work. Bob Pollack Well, we grew up in a time where the taboos as such lifted, the, the girlie magazines, and all this stuff started to really come out, everything came out of the closet, and we were growing up in that time. So we in essence, what a woman's movement, the pill, the pill, the use of sex in the media, in the films, it all started coming out into the eye, and we reflected that now behavior, I would assume Sue Atcheson Well that was it was a shock, a shocking thing to do in college to sleep with someone without marriage. And you can go on to all those other types of things. And it was always trying to prove to mom and dad, hey, I'm ahead of you. I know what's up. And I think people experienced burnout. There's only so many shocking things you can do. Until it's gonna catch up to you when we were in college was ther ever a streaker. Bob Pollack Yeah sure, it was the thing to do. It was fun. I didn't do it. But Robert Masello I mean, it was grotesque sometimes. But yeah, no, I remember when I was very young, considerably. You know, far back now, a woman told me that she had learned that a friend of hers had slept with a friend of mine. And this was a shattering revelation to her. I mean, she was really upset. Even then, she was saying, Oh, my gosh, you know, I can't believe that, that Judy, her name, would have gone ahead and done this. And then, of course, the space of only you know, six or seven years later, that would have you know, there would have been nothing even given the the age differences. Pat Skipper You know, nothing was ever shocking In college. I mean, it was, when I was there, it seemed like to me, it was shocking, if you didn't, yeah, I mean, they asked me one question about this before I said, you know, would you ever call anyone after the first day that they didn't sleep with you? I didn't have to, you know, everyone slept with everyone on the first date. As far as Sara Nelson I mean, in a situation where you're gonna, you know, you're gonna see the person, you're gonna see them in the dining hall, you're gonna, you know, be in, but that's whatever the Pat Skipper colleges are different. Now. I think that what they're saying is the colleges are different than they were then. Sara Nelson Yeah. But I mean, now you don't have the opportunity. I mean, in New York City, you're not likely to, unless you're very unlucky to run into this person the next day or the day after that, I'm sure train. So I mean, it is, it's automatically going to be different because of, you know, you have to have a real dating situation here. Whereas in college, it always seemed to me that was the sort Sue Atcheson when we were dating, and having relationship, sexual relationship on the first date. We did you call the next day? Well, you said, Oh, legend. You mean, Robert Masello when you're in college, yeah, you would call but you'd also see each other in the same French class in the morning, or you would see each other in a cafeteria, I think the thing that major difference that I saw when I got into, like New York City was simply that in college, everyone knows everyone, everyone, you know, can get to know each other to slow pace, you have referrals for anybody you want to go out with. When you get to New York City, or San Francisco, or wherever you are, if you meet somebody to party, whatever, you're going on very little information, you can't assume any common ground, you're not at the same campus, you're not interested, generally, necessarily in the same things. It's very tough to get any kind of beat on the person before you start dating. So that you have to go through a lot more weeding out, David Susskind change the time of the change for you individually. I mean, when did you stop recreational sex? And when did you say doesn't work? Count me out? I'm gonna go back to what mother said. Sue Atcheson I did a couple of years ago. And was it. It was a turning point. Yes, there was a man who called me at 10 o'clock at night, and he just wanted to come over for sex. And that was it. And I thought, wait a minute. He said, Hey, I'm, I'm in town right now. And hey, can I come over and spend the night? And I said, No. And he says, but I'm going to be out on a business trip for the next three weeks. And I said, Well, that's too bad. Oh, poor baby. Three years. And I thought, wait a minute, you know, until I start assigning a value to myself, How can I expect him or anyone else to because I've fallen into this trap. So I decided that I was worth respect, and dignity. I mean, this is the this is something that every human being should have, and sincerity and a certain amount of honesty. And that's the criteria I now use. When I go out with a man. What type of standards do you have? Robert Masello Well, I'm just thinking of a friend of mine who told me a funny story. She said that she met a guy at a party. She liked him, they got along fine. And the next he said, I'd like to take you out she said finally called her a couple of days later and said, We're gonna go away this weekend, I booked a room in Montauk it's a wonderful resort hotel. You're gonna love it. And she said, Excuse me. Did we not meet on Tuesday night and we thought over the crudities for about 15 minutes. And he had, you know, he had just made the presumption was leap to a weekend away. And she said, Am I a fuddy duddy for suddenly thinking this is crazy. You know, she was tortured all weekend she of course said no. But she sat there with, you know the rum raisin Haagen Dazs thinking, I don't believe what's going on. I don't even though this man Sara Nelson I think that's a lot subtler than the way a lot of a lot of people are. I mean, you know, it's, I mean, it's obvious what was going on, but at least he was going to take her away for the weekend. More than, you know, which is more than a lot. I mean, the story that Sue was just telling somebody calling her, you know, and saying, you know, can I come over in five minutes? I mean, it's, I mean, not that, you know, women want to be, you know, have to be taken to dinner and a show or something. But it's just like, you know, I mean, that's an amazing story. David Susskind I'm curious about the men, you three men. I you changing your attitudes as predatory animals? Are you just getting more nose these days? Well, in other words, are you still going? Going for broke? And being told no? Or are you just taking a different attitude to and a different pace to your day? Pat Skipper I think I think people I think men are changing their attitudes. My friends, certainly, myself, I've been living with the same woman for a couple of years, several years, and we're going to get married soon. So. But I had gone through a period where it was like a total game for me to see if I could wake up with one person and go to bed with another person in how many days I could, you know, just like this, like, how many days how many people can I sleep with? And I ended up I started hearing things about myself, you know, through the grapevine. Am I this person? And this is not me. And then I came to the realization Yeah, that's who I am. I'm using all these people. I'm really, and so I stopped. But I see, to get back to your question. I see a lot of my friends. And I, we talked, I talked to them, and they're not no one's going for broke anymore, though, at least in my circles, they're not going for broke, they're, they're much more cautious because people have been hurt so many times. But then when to deal with that, I think that's where we're gonna come from, I don't want to get hurt anymore. I'm gonna take my time. Robert Masello And to a certain extent, I think that men won't often say that I have a friend who started going out with a woman. And he led me to believe she's very attractive and very intelligent, very personable, that they were having a full commitment sleeping together. And all this from very early on. She still wanted me to believe that it was after I got to know them both much better. But I was once having drinks with her. And we started to talk about how she had met my friend. And it came out of her conversation that they had simply dated for maybe three months before they'd actually done that. But I thought, Oh, he does not want me to know that even now. He would like it to be believed that he's still much more forward than my show lover. Yeah. It was something that he would not have wanted to come out with another man yet. David Susskind Can you hold it right here because we have to pause for commercial. |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
David Susskind Sue Atcheson has written a special ballad to describe the recreational sex phase of the 60s 70s you want to play for some battle there? Sure what gave birth to it. Sue Atcheson The first time I went into a singles bar in San Francisco, and discovered the dating scene. I was in basically a state of shock at when I came home because I couldn't believe what was going on. So I wrote a song about it to help clarify things. And it's also a compilation of experiences that my other friends have had to write. It's a it's the woman's point of view about dating, David Susskind About dating, right. Sue Atcheson First, you get a man about six foot tall, you can find him in a single spot. Check if he has no need, then you can do this on me. Does he have the fancy car a Maserati or XR exam his credentials and see if they draw him does he have a good job? Can he is he an intellectual or latent asexual? Now we are doing that right. what a drag a lot of men out there are pretty bad. some of them are boozers a lot fo them are losers. I've seen a few gold plated and others moody jaded. About a Boy you are not your body is perfect. Isaac Newton, Renoir. You have sensual slips. I love your hips, then ask those wherever they've never met you before, as soon as you've heard that line, you'll know they want to score. They'll say you have exquisite taste, just to get you to their place. Take care a lot of men out there are pretty bad. Some of them are losers, a lot of them are losers. I seen a few gold plated, and oh, there's a jaded, I'm tired of getting paid, it's really got me down. I can't take God with the one marker down. So I'll take all chastity be called on our knees, and stop playing the dating game David Susskind Sue, that was very good. Sue Atcheson Thank you, thank you, David Susskind Says that's the whole thing in a nutshell, Robert Masello Guess we can all leave. Sue Atcheson Losers and bruises. You have to have the right kind of car. Sara Nelson I like the part about counting to five. Sue Atcheson Now, when the free sex was the name of the game, among young people in America, were women conscious that they were losing something very precious their own dignity in their own privacy. And Sue Atcheson I don't believe they were I believe it was new types of a new way of testing your wings. And I think they were pushing to the limit to see how far they could go. And because I found that the emotions for me caught up before the physical part did. And when the emotional stress of what I was doing finally caught up, I needed a while just to kind of calm down and, and reflect and think about it. And so I did, I took a few months off and talked to friends about it. And then I started finding out that we were all sharing a lot of the same similar experiences, that it wasn't me alone. And there was always one question, I always wanted to ask a man and that was you'd go out on a date, and you'd have a wonderful time everything was perfect. And then he'd never call again. And that was the question that I wanted to ask you. Why do men do that? Bob Pollack I think it's their fear, probably of commitment. I've recently done a lot of work on myself. And I've discovered so much about myself that I'm just blown away as to why I did the things I did when I was younger. And now I'm first realizing that a lot of it has to do with my upbringing and the fact that my parents, I love very much, but yet, they were taught by their parents and my experiences of interaction and communication are quite limited. And we're all never taught how to communicate and really, how to have relationships. Robert Masello And when men don't call back, I think too, that women always assume that they make the wrong assumption, because they assume that the man definitely wasn't interested. And I know it's happened to me. And it's happened to most of my men, friends, that the woman is not giving us full credit for our own fear, ambivalence, doubt and confusion. I mean, I know a lot of times when I've gone out with a woman maybe once, twice, whatever. And I, in my own mind, not at all sure that she was having a great time. And I think well, maybe she's not interested. And I think it's so important in a case like that, for a woman to summon up her courage, I know how hard it is. Because it's hard enough for man, it still is much harder for women to do this. But to simply call him because that's often All it takes is for the man to know that she legitimately was interested in Bob Pollack how to communicate, we don't talk to one another we make we talk to one another, but we don't communicate with one another truly, you know, putting being vulnerable and putting it all out there. And because everyone's afraid they're gonna hurt everybody else. And everyone's afraid of all these fears of, Well, should I take the risk? Shouldn't I take the risk? And I've been doing, you know, this growth with this actualizaciones. And I'm finding it unbelievable in terms of discovering about myself and how I relate with people David Susskind are you in some form of therapy Bob Pollack it's a workshop, where it's offered in Los Angeles and San Francisco and New York and Boston. And it's it's part of this human development that we're all going through, as to is formed and it's very much like Lifespring, and many of them have different ways of dealing with having a person experience himself in a way they've never experienced before Sue Atcheson the person important private things in your life to a group of others who help by their questioning. With an instructor there. Bob Pollack Yes. In a sense, that's true. It's it's an experience. It's a very well thought out experience over a course of a Thursday night, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. It's a very concentrated experience of yourself. And it's very ingeniously set up in terms of a process that you go through, and realizing things about yourself, that work and that are beautiful. And we all have beauty and it's in a wonderful, there are things that don't work. And those are the things that you you find out Sue Atcheson Do we have to work on. Do we have that in New York? Are you aware of anything like that? And these talk to you all. Like that there are, I'm sure there must be. Well, the thing I don't understand is if you had such an evening that you describe a wonderful, interesting, stimulating, exciting, amusing, companionable all the things she says, How could you, as such man know that you wonder, well, Robert Masello well, if it went that well, that I'd have to be an idiot not to have noticed. But sometimes the man isn't quite sure doesn't always go that way. Sometimes a lot Sara Nelson of in between, I mean, you know, there's a lot of I mean, there's a movie, I can't remember what it is now. And it's a Woody Allen movie with a Woody Allen and Diane Keaton are talking to each other. It's an Annie Hall, right? And he says one thing, and then you see a subtotal of what he's really thinking. And, you know, and the same for her. And it's completely different, of course, what he says, and he's saying, I can't remember then something about, would you like to get together Saturday night? And she says, I can't, I have to do something. And he says, Well, he's thinking, well, she must really be unpopular, she must not, you know, men must not like or something. And so I mean, I think that's sort of the point that people are, what they're saying, and what they're thinking are really, completely unrelated Robert Masello it's just simply a matter of logistics. I mean, sometimes let's say he goes out of town and business for a week, and he starts thinking about other things. He maybe just had a date with somebody else, you can very easily, you know, spin something that was good in the first place into something bad. I mean, if he's a little bit doubtful, by nature, even, he can start to remember Gee, she said that she loves French films, I can't stand this would never work. I might as well start all over again with somebody else. And it's easy enough, very often to find somebody else you keep thinking I'll find somebody and it will be magic, and we'll hit it off instantly. Sara Nelson What are you so afraid of? I mean, Robert Masello I'm not afraid. David Susskind of commitment. Where's your commitment? Robert Masello Actually, I mean, I shouldn't admit this. But I do have a commitment. I've been going out with the same person for I guess it's a year and a ye dar and a half. Now, David Susskind that's a long time. But we've done what you've done. A solo basis? Dating no body else? Robert Masello I haven't. I would have to probably check with her. But I know I assume. I assume it's entirely monogamous. Yeah. Which the way that we both would want it. It is David Susskind what keeps you from moving into the same apartment, your Robert Masello Rents in New York, probably more than anything else. So truly, that has a lot to do with it. You're gonna tell me it's the worst. I have one of the great deals, but in any event, we do spend almost all of our time together. I mean, one place or another, you know, either at her house or at mine. Sue Atcheson But why do men collect women? Like little charms on a bracelet? I've always wondered that. Some of the ones I've met I do we collected? I've known Men and Dating situations where it seems to be a competition between them and their friends as to how many women they can be dating or at once and why? David Susskind Well that's collegiate Sue Atcheson is it? Pat Skipper I think that's I think that's what we're trying. That's what we're trying. That's what we're talking about. We're moving away from I think that was what the subject was cuz I used to be, you know, Trophy Hunter, man. I was. I was I was brutal, you know, constantly humping gum. No question, you know, and, and, uh, but I think I see people moving away from that. I sense that, I don't know, maybe my collection of friends has changed. Robert Masello But I have friends just like mine. It's the same thing. The guys that I knew who did that on a regular basis, did it through college, did it for a number of years after that, but most of them are, have changed their ways. They've either settle down, either living in the same apartment, which I think the grand idea, or else they have actually gotten married and they don't seem to be up to that same shenanigan any longer. Most of them that I know, Sue Atcheson one other reason men may indeed collect female trophies is to take so many females to meet the right one. Sara Nelson Men to meet the right one to well, yes, I mean, you know, Sue Atcheson I mean, you'd have to date so many women to find the one you love or the one you care for. Enough to say okay, this is it. So the others on Route can't be called trophies because that's very pejorative. They were hopeful experimentations Pat Skipper let's put a really nice light because I don't think I don't agree with that because I don't think that's the way it was really truthfully I think it for a while it was just compulsive running after women to a lot of women too. as a reaction To that, and when I, when I, in my State of compulsive skirt chasing ran into a woman who was mowing down men to man it was that's when I could come really out and I could see things from it from a completely different light.to a couple times and oh, wait, it's like this person is just like me and I hate them. Sara Nelson I think I went through a period of thinking, you know, I wanted to have a career and I wanted to, you know, have my life and I was sort of trying to be a man. I mean, I was trying to be what I thought men were, which was, you know, very, I mean, I would never use the word promiscuous, but, you know, casual and and, you know, kind of very sophisticated about it and, and that I could have sex with the same kind of in the same sort of Cavalier fashion that men could handle. Yeah. And handle it. Right. Exactly. And I, you know, they could do it, I could do it. And I was cool. Exactly. Well, no, I didn't, it wasn't so much that it was just that I, I sort of got a look at my I mean, I sort of realized that I was turning into these men that I really didn't like, I mean, I was, as badthe men that were doing what I was doing as a woman, women that I would have nothing to do with I mean, that I really didn't like, and I, you know, and I sort of felt like I was turning into one of them. And so it wasn't a question of handling it or not handling it, it was just realizing that I just didn't, I just didn't like people like that I didn't like people who collected people. David Susskind You didn't like you. Sara Nelson And I didn't like me. Exactly. David Susskind We have to hold it here. We'll be back in a minute. |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
David Susskind Time Magazine of April 9 issue had a quotation I found very interesting and said that women use sex to get intimacy, and men use intimacy to get sex. Sue Atcheson I'll go with that. David Susskind I think there's a lot of truth. Robert Masello Yeah, I think something we were talking about relates to that in terms of I think that one of the things that Sarah was talking about when she was talking about having gone through a period when she saw more men that she really thought maybe she ought to have is simply that, sorry, but it's simply that I think that a lot of us bought at one time, the myth that you could actually be intimate in terms of having sex with somebody and keep your feelings reserved or separate, not get somehow involved, for better or for worse, good, bad, whether it's animosity or love that comes out of it. And I think that after a fair number of experiences like that, you realize you really can't do that. I mean, I certainly never could. And I don't know, most of my friends, anybody who really could make that kind of dividing line between them, and go to bed with somebody and not feel something whatever it was the next day for that person much more than they had before having taken that step. Bob Pollack Well, let's define intimacy. I mean, how did we all view intimacy? Well, how do you define it? What does it mean? David Susskind It's a very special closeness. Bob Pollack I think we all have a different definition, Sue Atcheson physical and spiritual ambience, psychological ambience with another person Bob Pollack you can createthat, I think, by going to a wonderful restaurant, and having the right environment to be in, and that's very intimate. But are the two individuals being intimate? Sue Atcheson Wouldn't you say intimacy would be allowing yourself to be vulnerable, to be opened Robert Masello That's allowing yourself also, I think, reveal the weak points of your nature character. Because when you're starting out with somebody, you're definitely still trying to do a certain amount of selling, you know, I've done this, I've accomplished that. And you're always keeping in reserve, you're thinking, Well, I'm glad so far, it hasn't come out that I haven't picked up my socks in the last six years, or that I can't read a roadmap or whatever. And when you can start to divulge the little, you know, peccadilloes of your character and little problems that you have, and you can reveal those things, and be assured of a warm, decent understanding reception for them, then I think you're pretty much there at that point, when you can do that. Bob Pollack Well, for many years. For myself, the word vulnerable, was a bad word, it meant being weak, I can't be vulnerable. And I just recently discovered this, and I'm going to be 33 years old. That's the conception I had of the term vulnerable. And that obviously affected the way I interacted for many, many years. And that's something that has to do with my childhood and the male roles that I that were around me, and I was, in essence, learning from them, you know, being the strong male and not showing your weakness and you can't be vulnerable and you have to You're the man and you can't cry. And I think intimacy is something that our whole culture lacks, understanding that. Do you agree Sara Nelson with that, man, I mean, sort of getting back a little bit to the quote that I mean, men have sort of figured out that women want sensitive men, you know, that they don't want macho men and so it's sort of they figured out how to appear to be sent which I think is close to what we mean by intimacy,they're very sort of solicitous. And they're very, you know, they appear to be very sensitive and honest and vulnerable. And it's really just the same act. But the sort of flipside of the same kind of macho, that was my Yeah. Sensitive, I'm sensitive. Right. Right. And, you know, and that sort of worked for a while, I think with a lot of women, I think a lot of women thought that, you know, that he was sensitive, so it was okay. And I think people are starting to figure out, I know, that, that I did, and a lot of my friends that, you know, these men are just, it's the same act, it's just a different version of it. And it's all set for the same reason. I mean, the the object is still the same. Bob Pollack I played that game. In the last five years, I've been in four relationships. And they all didn't work. And last February, i and b, prior to that, I was looking at myself, and I was saying, What's going on here, I look good, I got a good job, I make decent money. I live here in New York, I go, but, but I'm missing something, there's something missing. And I had really given a lot of thought to the fact that it can't be their fault. And I have something to do with the fact that that it didn't work well, those times, and I can't blame them, I'd be an idiot. So I realized that I have to find a way of finding out what's wrong with me and, and look into myself, and look at myself and put myself in a situation where I could find out what what's going on, and what's not working. Because there's a lot of beauty and like good things that are working for me. But obviously, there's something that isn't Pat Skipper I think that's what that's what you're talking about before. That's where the change has come from, at least what what I feel like we all have in common was we look what is wrong with me, why am I not loved? Why am I what am I missing? And it's all my there's something wrong with me. And you've come to that realization? Yes, there is something wrong. I mean, that's what everybody comes when idea, or there's something that I need to correct. And that's where I think the change the sexual revolution, or whatever. So the tide is going out a little bit, because I think people are another owning up a little bit. Bob Pollack I don't think enough people though, facing that and saying that and doing something about it. And they talk about it. And and really, you know, have a fantasy about it. David Susskind They're aware, you have a new awareness, right, that you have lacked vulnerability, you know, want to do something about that and open yourself to vulnerability. You would take that as a line, you say, well, he's trying to be sensitive, Sara Nelson not necessarily. Bob Pollack Some said, I'm sure. I think it's what I've gone one step beyond of what you said, the men were exhibiting and their behavior. I mean, I It's also official, yeah, those men that you were talking. Yeah, Sara Nelson Yeah I mean, I do I I think sometimes it is aligned. I'm not saying it always is aligned. I mean, some people are, are sensitive. I mean, it's such an overused word at this point. But, you know, I mean, some people are, but some people have figured out how to appear to be sensitive without really being sensitive at all, because that's what they perceive women want, Robert Masello which I think also got a lot of men into a lot of trouble there simply because they didn't know what women want. And I had friends, I mean, I talked to a lot of men, even when I work on the column, I interview a lot of people and the one thing that kept coming up as a problem with the men was he said, You know, I don't know, I have to be some kind of weird cross now between Alan Alda and Attila the Hun wants to be sensitive and nice. And at the same time to retain some kind of sex appeal because you can't be a dishrag. You can't be that limp and weeping, and you still have to maintain a certain amount of fiber and back steam integrity. And it was hard for them to know, you know, how much of each they could actually parcel out in themselves? Sue Atcheson Well, I see it as the US the war Boom, baby generation is growing up. You, you you go through your period of experimentation. And and what what how far can we push ourselves? And who do we want to be? How do we want to mold our character, and as we get older and more mature, then we're going to learn how to handle vulnerability, we're going to understand what intimacy means and a lot of other things. So maybe that's part of what's going on right now, too. Robert Masello And also, where will we find the happiness? I mean, one of the things we all rocketed around, you know, bonding and splitting like atoms in a reactor, it was also fast and, and precipitous, that I don't think people when they sat down afterwards, discovered, you know, I'm not really happy with this, this is not getting me whatever it is, I'm looking for. So maybe another route is the best way to do Bob Pollack Well look what was going on. We were growing up, look at all the revolutions that were happening, the drug revolution, the women's revolution, the political revolution, and I feel we just reflected that, with all the confusion and things that were changing so rapidly after the war. Obviously, I was born in 52. So it was it was after the fact that when I grew up in the early 60s, and there was such a revolution going on, and we were growing up, we didn't know which way we're going. Should it be the old way, the way our parents did it where they grew up, and they met and they got married at a young age and they had a family or What's what television and what the film's are airing. And there was a lot of confusion. And I don't think that the educational systems really were equipped to equip us to handle it because they didn't know either. Bob Pollack Well, everything was the new man. The new college was experimental with them, too, Bob Pollack with the new kids with the new. Yeah. I don't think it's any we can't blame anybody. There's no blame. And if people stopped blaming, then we're on Big Trouble guys. David Susskind How much do you think the appearance of disease like herpes, AIDS has contributed to the cutback in sexuality? Pat Skipper Oh, yeah. Big. I mentioned to someone that I would if they were doing a show. And he said, Well, it's forced. It's forced celibacy. I mean, he happens to be gay and and certainly in that community there with with AIDS, it's certainly the sexual activity is shrunk down among my gay friends. I know, when I thought I was invulnerable to disease when I was going around, you know, but I and then also you say, Oh, gee, I know this guy, and he has herpes. And this is like a serious thing. And, and I think it has made a big difference. Robert Masello I think the nice thing is, you could say one word on behalf of herpes. It's that it gave a lot of people a fairly legitimate reason for following their own proclivities in the first place that you didn't have to explain anymore. You could say, Look, I'm not crazy, this is going around, it gave you a wonderful kind of reasonable scientific refuge Sara Nelson actually knew somebody who the only kind of delicate or polite way she thought she could get out of a sexual situation she didn't want to get into was by saying that she had herpes. She doesn't. She said she did. And nobody was gonna. Because, you know, I mean, the guy's work went away. Yeah, Sue Atcheson was a joke, for my opinion of how I felt about herpes and the social diseases as I embroidered a sign that said, celibacy. And when a man would come over for the first time, he looked at it, like what, and then I would flip it over, and I went down to the Department of Public Health, and I got tested for VD. And I saw I had a nice clean bill of health. So I slapped it on the back of the celibacy sign, and I would show it to them. And I'd say, well, here's my certificate of health, clean health where's yours David Susskind San Francisco, the authorities are very cooperative. Tougher in New York. We'll be right back |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
David Susskind In reading that Time article again, it said that some 10 to 20 million Americans have herpes, and that there are 200 to 500,000 new cases every year. Do you actually in your social encounters these days? Ask the woman or the man your case? Do you have herpes? Sara Nelson Well, I'm living with somebody too. So it's not an issue to me. But I probably would, yes, Bob Pollack I have. I have many times. And then again, and how do you know the telling the truth? David Susskind What reaction do get? Bob Pollack Okay, you know, something like that. And that's my reaction and very action is, is fine. I mean, they that the people, the women, I've spoken to understand that it's something that they have to deal with. In this situation. David Susskind They don't take umbrage. Bob Pollack They were good. They were fine about it. And they discussed it. And Robert Masello they may be glad that somebody brought it up, right? It's very difficult for anybody dimension. Bob Pollack I've met people who know how to manage it. And as long as they're responsible to managing it, then it's not a problem. Sue Atcheson Sue how is it in San Francisco? Sue Atcheson With herpes and AIDS and the whole band? Sue Atcheson Well I know you've got a quite a, quite an outbreak there. But do you inquire of your partner? Sue Atcheson You know, you feel like you're in a situation if you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't, because if you speak to a man and after a wonderful evening, say by the way, do you have herpes or any other social disease there if they'll feel insulted or they'll feel hurt? And like I said, the way I bring about it, the discussion is I show them my celibacy sign. And I try to to be a little bit light about it, and hope that they have the sensitivity to, to come clean with me too, because Robert Masello at the point at which you're asking that things have reached a fairly critical impasse, it is, Oh, it can't come up too early. Because otherwise it sounds like an overture. But you have to wait until a fairly tender moment before you can actually even bring up this less than tender subject just kind of kill the mood to Sue Atcheson the existence of herpes as at the very least diminished the amount of sex, heterosexual Yes, sex, definitely. Because people have a good reason to be fearful. Robert Masello And at the same time, of course, that has contributed to commitment because one of the things you want to know is that you know the other person well enough and you care each other about each other enough already, that something like that would be mentioned and something that's you know done cavalierly is As Sarah had mentioned earlier, you wouldn't, you wouldn't be able to ask and you wouldn't trust the answer. But if you know someone well enough, sure, you would think this will definitely be told. Either way, the truth. Bob Pollack I've, when I'm out there, seeking companionship and meeting women, I find I am looking for someone who doesn't have herpes, I don't. And I kind of leaning towards meeting someone who doesn't have it. Sara Nelson I've heard men say that they if they were dating someone, and and we're told that she had herpes, that they would not get involved with her, no matter. And I don't. And this was, was a long time ago, but this was not, not like in a singles bar situation. But you know, in moving into a relationship. If the woman had herpes, he would, you know, not take the relationship any further. Robert Masello You found that out later on Sara Nelson Oh, before that, before they had sex. But as you know, I've said that had three or four dates, maybe it hadn't slept together, and then found out that she had herpes. And he said that he would just like understand Bob Pollack that could be Pat Skipper certainly be a contributor, contributing reason not to going out the person again, I Sue Atcheson probably would retreat at that point at which he had no emotional commitment. No, no sure need of her emotionally, no love for her. But if he's gone far enough with her to lead her? Why wants? Yeah, he probably could live with the herpes thing. Because I know, obviously, I'm there all the time. Bob Pollack Alright, it's just a matter of getting beyond that fear and understanding it fully. Sara Nelson Well, yeah. I mean, I was actually horrified when he said that to me, because I thought, I mean, that's like, you know, saying that you? I mean, you know, what kind of relationship could you have with somebody if you want? I mean, that's, that's the worst part of better or worse? I mean, you know, what I mean? It's like saying, Well, you have, you know, you know, there's X disease in your family, and therefore, you may get it, and therefore, I don't want to have anything to do with you. I mean, that's what it seemed, it seemed very cold blooded to me. Pat Skipper But I don't know the person very well. I mean, that's the point, if you don't have three or four dates, unless you just you're extremely interested in this person. What are you going to do? You know, I mean, this could be something that could affect you the rest of your life, you know, and then people are going to leave run from you as well, I don't know. It doesn't say, maybe cold blooded, but you have to protect yourself. I mean, you, you know, always, Bob Pollack ther are also different types of herpes simplex one and two, or I'm not quite sure, there are different degrees of it. And its severity. Robert Masello Because it is funny that all of us have had to study up on this to certain extent, one, two, virus A, B, etc, can help with reading. Bob Pollack And I don't think it should be not in one's mind to consider that. You can't blame a man for thinking about that. Or for a woman to think about that about a man it goes both ways. Sue Atcheson old double standard still exist, even though you've led your respective kind of lives. Do you for the woman in your life that you will marry or commit yourself? Do you want her to be pure innocent? Or would you accept the fact that she was a free agent and had as much right to participate in that? Recreation? Sure. Yeah, Pat Skipper definitely. I met my girlfriend and I, people had told me not to go out with her. Before the people who knew her before I did said, you know, maybe maybe you shouldn't do this. And I said, Well, why don't I think she's really great. You know, and they said, Well, you know, she was, so what do you think I do? You know, what? Do I care if she ran around? I don't imagine heaven? Yeah, I mean, really, you know, I mean, I don't really know, I know some of what she'd done before. But that doesn't, that double standard is, I think, really a dying thing, I think. Robert Masello And we should go one more legacy of the 60s, which was that total honesty, where you had to broadcast to each other. say, Listen, before we get involved, you should know that there were these, you know, contenders for my heart one time. I mean, people told each other, which was insane. I mean, I did that myself once with somebody where, when we were just beginning to get committed, I actually drew her out on the subject, one of those foolish moments and you know, you're doing something crazy, but we're having a why. And I said, so. What about Fred, was that really more serious than that? And did you all your days is terrible for the relationship. Bob Pollack I look at it as an advantage because they are more experienced. They have been through what I have been through and I don't think the delta for me, the double standard really doesn't exist and that I would want someone who's who's been around and who has experienced life in a way that I have. And we can grow from that and understand one another term here. Sue Atcheson And you could keep from refrain from querying her asking details of her life. staying clear of the sorted? Yes. Bob Pollack How different? Are we all really, I mean, we all live in the same country, we all we all eat and sleep and then go to school and have work or whatever. So how different Oh, he said that to find out the sort of details. I could probably imagine what they are. So what Sue Atcheson the problem is, it's it's the past in that person's life anyway. And frankly, before you met them what business was their past anyway? Because they can't change it. I've had men who have inquired about my past sexual experiences. And I say, That's none of your business that doesn't relate to you. I don't want you to know mine. Any more than then you should tell me yours. Because then you're going to get into competition or comparison, don't you think? Bob Pollack I have no problem telling you about my past. If I'm asked that, I have no problem with naming names or details to be they want to know, I'll tell him I have no problem with Sue Atcheson do you? Would you really want to know all the details? Bob Pollack They wanted to know, then I'll tell him. But they have to, of course, be responsible for the way they react to because they're asking for. And if you want it, I'll tell you, but just be aware of you may not like what you hear. So that's something that we could both check into and deal with. If she wants to know. Sue Atcheson All right, I do I invented but I've never succeeded in selling it. You have the right to ask me anything. And I am obliged to tell you the truth, by way of answering. But I can ask you the same question. And you have to tell the truth also, that will eliminate all that inquiring stuff like that? Because if you asked me to who did you go with and what we feed like and all that, then you have to answer and then you have to do have to come in? Same answers, same questions. So that would eliminate Well, what is Sue Atcheson Well, what is the biggest change you've seen come about? And in terms of dating, the evolution of dating, David Susskind the change is so vast that I cannot even begin to tell you in the remaining time, you'd have to start with the code of chivalry. I did grow up in fine Boston, Massachusetts, where the code of chivalry was it? Uh huh. Were nice girls didn't they were virgins on their wedding day and were the flowered on their wedding night, not before. Bad Girls did if you could find one. But you'd have to go cruising girl, and the double standard was ramping. Girls shouldn't couldn't and wouldn't. Nice girls, decent families. But men did. Often as they could. It was a whole world I mean, bears no resemblance to today. And we were all wrong. I mean, I wish we would have had your code. Because there was a lot of repression, and a lot of anxiety and a lot of self a lot of guilt. And he had to confess. Catholics, of course, had to confess as part of their dogma, the rest of us confessed, because we needed to get it out. Robert Masello Read sort of had to blurt it out, right. It was. David Susskind Anyway, we have to pause right now. Okay, that age is the Stone Age. We have to pause. We'll be back in a minute. |
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INTERVIEW RETURNS:
David Susskind Alright we have returned to romance. You've all documented that. Genuine romance. Or commitment. How is it going now. Are you pleased with how it is? Sue Atcheson Oh I love it. I do because I think it opens the relationship for more creativity. And that when you finally do get to an intimate state where you're having sex, since it's been postponed a little bit longer, you have a chance to know each other become friends. David Susskind How long should it be postpones? Sue Atcheson You know, it depends on the nature of the relationship. It could be three months, it could be six months, it could be a year. It could be a week. You don't? It depends on what what is. David Susskind Could you live? Robert? What three months or six months or a year? Bob Pollack Without getting involved? Sexually? David Susskind Yes. Bob Pollack No. Sara Nelson Not even three months. David Susskind Three months is a lifetime. Sara Nelson I mean, not not if you're going I mean, I don't know. I mean, in in New York, when you have a career and you're busy and you have all this stuff. I mean, you see somebody once or twice a week for two months. You can't imagine doing that. David Susskind You reduced it a month, Sara Nelson three months, two months, three months, or you made it sound like you met like a week. Bob Pollack I didn't say no. Robert Masello I think a lot of men no actually even welcome and I mean, a lot of the men that I talked to, rather like being able to go through a lot of the trappings and a lot of the overture that was lost because there was that span of time, when it was very dicey when there was a period when you didn't know exactly how you should treat a woman about opening doors or whatever, it was all political. It was like a minefield, trying to walk through it. And I think everybody, a lot of men I know now are much more comfortable with the fact that the situation is less volatile, it's been sort of diffused. And you can indulge that aspect of even the male nature, which has always been there. But men sort of lost a period of apprenticeship to their, I mean, a lot of guys who are in the 30s, now, lost some early years, they should have been serenading under a balcony, but they were afraid to fail, they get a bucket of water dumped on their head, are now coming back to that I think they rather like the men I've talked to Bob Pollack I have no expectations, Sarah, at all. It just depends on what happens with that particular person. Sara Nelson Well, I mean, I think that, you know, the question is sort of, I mean, it's impossible to answer because it does depend on the situation. I mean, I mean, I can't I mean, a year, I think we would all agree that that's, that's completely ridiculous. But, you know, I mean, you know, a week, two weeks, two months, I mean, in my Bob Pollack In my mind, it could definitely happen, because if I meet someone, and we start courting one another, that doesn't, that to me, is that I'm not exclusive with her. Sara Nelson So what sort of where do you count from? I mean, do you count from the time I mean, you know, you can meet somebody you work with, or meet a friend of a friend. And and you don't actually have dates, per se, but you sort of end up at the same parties or, you know, just sort of have this kind of circle. And you could know somebody for, you know, three months before you have a date, or six months before you have a date and see them, you know, David Susskind what time and one other senses get into be of the essence of the some of your generation are in the middle 30s or late 30s. And they haven't got children. They've had careers and they have careers. They've got dates, and or recurrent boyfriends, but they're not married and their childbearing a period is coming to an end Bob Pollack The clock is ticking. David Susskind clock is ticking. Yeah. Right. What about that? Sara Nelson I could see that happening. I mean, I I mean, I, I know a lot of women that are in there, I'm 28. But I know a lot of women that are in their mid to late 30s. And it's I mean, you can really see it. I mean, it's it's a real issue. And I mean, I don't know, I don't know what the answer is, but it's very difficult for a lot David Susskind You don't want children. Sara Nelson I think I do I don't want them now. But I think that I mean, I could see myself being one of those women. I mean, that's not an appealing prospect, I mean, being 35 or 36, and wanting to have a child and and you know, and if I were not involved with someone, you know, not being able to, Bob Pollack I've run into as much of that, in my experience, women 35 36, who give it a thought, and it is an issue for them. And for me, it's it's not an issue, being a male. And I'm, I empathize with them. I really do. Robert Masello I saw sort of two waves of commitment. And this is like the second one one was, strangely enough, right after college, a lot of people who didn't want to go out into the cold, cruel world alone suddenly decided to marry the last person that had a date with was like, No, hi, we went out last Thursday. It's awful out there. Let's get married. Most of those have since moved on to divorce Bob Pollack I'm one of them, right. And I wound up in a divorce. Robert Masello And exactly. And now I see, certainly with the biological clock ticking the women in early to mid 30s. They have that reason for wanting to make a commitment. And I see that the men who have also run through a slew of partners and not exactly find what they wanted and realize it wasn't giving them the contentment that they were looking for. Also, for their own reasons, wanting to make the commitment so that there's now a whole least I spent all of my time buying wedding gifts. I know these days, for all of my friends, even the guys who were always, as you said, collecting, you know, charms for the bracelet or whatever, you know, not just in the bedpost. There's a whole you know, gambit of weddings going on now. Pat Skipper I must be I don't know you say you empathize. I don't know if I don't know how it's possible to empathize with a woman who's 35 37. And in she she's just dating and I don't know how to I don't know how to empathize with that casualty of the time. Yeah, that to me, I don't know how I count on him. I don't even my feelings. I don't know if I didn't go that far to empathize. I think it's just such must be such a difficult thing to have to deal with. You don't want to be like desperately seeking a mate because everybody who's out there, man, as soon as anyone smells, desperation, forget it. There's no way you know, to get defined to meet anyone who's nice. And to get into some kind of you know, take time and get into a relationship time runs out. And you get desperate and it's like a circle. I don't know. It's scary, Robert Masello which is always the worst thing if you're looking you can't be looked like you're looking because if you are it's anathema, right at that point. David Susskind Well, men and women had on different wavelengths in that respect. She wants the child if she's in her 30s and a marriage in the child and he wants marriage and maybe some adventure some time to travel together and do things and the baby Sooner would be inconvenient. Sure, Robert Masello though, to a certain extent, a lot of men, who are at that age have done a lot of those things that you're mentioning, taken the glamorous vacation in a rowboat for two weeks or whatever, done those things, usually at least among the people that I can run through in my mind, yes, they get married. And there's usually a one or two year hiatus that they almost implicitly have agreed on. And they're going to take that much time to just be together to work on their marriage. And then of course, then they do decide to have the kid then David Susskind we have about three minutes left, what kind of advice would you give to college students today, you had a whole other experience in a whole other American context, Bob Pollack the advice I can give them would really be to do a lot of soul searching, and really get to know themselves, really what makes them tick. And really go past the fear of exploring who they are, and open up and really learn about themselves and put themselves in situations which, which are fearful, because and take the risks. But do it, do it in a way where you can learn from it and not, of course, do anything that's harmful to yourself. Because as I said earlier, I really believe from this work I'm doing right now on myself, that I look back, and I thought I was together and everything was fine. And I really didn't know how to be intimate and communicate with people. And I'm just learning how to do that right now. And I feel real good about it David Susskind and doing a very good job. Bob Pollack Thank you. Sue Atcheson I think I would say my advice to a college student would be to have balance in your life. Because we tended to be the generation which would pivot from one way and now we're pivoting to the other. And that's really important. Robert Masello If you can cut the pendulum at exactly the right point, you know, maybe it's come back swing middle now, back to Pat Skipper well, you could say just have a good time. Be creative, you know, usual, you know, find something new to do. Good time for something different. You know, I mean, everybody, I mean, you go through everybody's done all everybody's you know, take your time and find out do something fun with this person, rather than jump into the sack with them immediately. I mean, it's Robert Masello most of us rare over 30 So they won't listen anyway. David Susskind That over 30 thing is passe. Yes, listening to over 30. I just wanted to tell you that you've been excellent guests. You've been very forthcoming and I appreciate your being here. I hope we meet again. We'll be right back after this pause. |
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SUSSKING CLOSES THE SHOW:
David Susskind That's it for tonight. Thanks for being with us. Join us again. |
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