19891980s NEWS
The Eleventh Hour - Show #155
Title: Conversation with Mayor Ed Koch
Original Broadcast Date: 4-4-89
Guest: Ed Koch
Description: Koch discusses his book, His Eminence and Hizzoner, a collboration with John Cardinal O'Connor, the changing social and political climate of New York City, and his personal feelings on topics such as death, morality, religion, and life in the public eye.
Title: Conversation with Mayor Ed Koch
Original Broadcast Date: 4-4-89
Guest: Ed Koch
Description: Koch discusses his book, His Eminence and Hizzoner, a collboration with John Cardinal O'Connor, the changing social and political climate of New York City, and his personal feelings on topics such as death, morality, religion, and life in the public eye.
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Title Slate: The Eleventh Hour #155 Koch. Rec: 4/3/89. Dir: Andrew Wilk
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Charitable foundations and funding for show by announcer overlay The Eleventh Hour graphic.
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The Eleventh Hour graphics and show opener
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Close up in the Eleventh Hour studio on the Mayor of New York, Edward Irving Koch. Unseen, Host Robert Lipsyte introduces him to viewers.
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Host Robert Lipsyte welcomes viewers to show. He talks about Mayor Koch running for Mayor of New York for the fourth time.
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INTERVIEW:
Ed Koch: are running to do the job. There's lots more to be done. I have started programs, like our housing program that has yet to be implemented Robert Lipsyte the sense we get is not so much that you're running for mayor, but that you're running for your life. There's a kind of a passion and ferocity in almost everything you do. This book, which I've been reading, which is supposedly about a churchmen and a secular statesman, really, to me is about two holy men. And your involvement with the city, your ferocity about the city seems almost religious in its texture. Ed Koch Nothing wrong with that is there Robert Lipsyte I don't know Ed Koch I believe that this city is unique and that God gave me an opportunity really given to anyone and when I mentioned God, lots of public officials flinch because they think there's something wrong with publicly expressing your belief in God. But I have always expressed my belief Robert Lipsyte I'm flinching. Not that there's anything wrong, but there's a sense that he reached out and touched Ed Koch Ed Koch Well I have said, and I've been criticized on occasion for having said it when I spoke at Mount Neboh church in Harlem. And I said it was the people who elected me but God who selected me, meaning that he gave me the opportunities, he gave my parents the opportunity to come to the United States, from Poland, he gave you opportunities on this program, and then you're on your own. And when I said that, several churchmen, including a rabbi and some Protestant ministers said, Oh, he's just seeking to ingratiate himself with the conservatives. Can't you be liberal and also believe in God? I'm a liberal who believes in God? Robert Lipsyte Do you have a sense of mission? I mean, do you feel kind of filled with something that you have to fulfill? Ed Koch I am not a zealot. I believe that I have common sense approaches to almost everything reasonable rational. I'm a liberal with sanity. And my life is public service. I have been in public service since 1963. Robert Lipsyte When you're not a zealot, and yet, when you strike back at your critics, you do it with the righteousness of somebody who feels it's something more than just one guy answering it. Ed Koch no I disagree with you. I'm not a punching bag. What surprises my critics is that I respond, because most people in public life at an elevated position. simply ignore the attacks. I do not I write letters, I write columns. I speak my mind. What's wrong with doing that? I never understood why people questioned my right to respond with a letter to a column that I thought was unfair. And I have had the situation where a columnist, called up a newspaper that I printed my column on a regular basis and said you shouldn't do it. And you shouldn't especially do it because he is writing a column attacking me, another columnist. The first amendment, you know, is not just for reporters or columnists. It's for all of us. |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES
Robert Lipsyte But you're a statesman. You're an international statesman, you're a mayor with a foreign policy. Well, why aren't you you know, above the dogs of the press yapping at your heels. Ed Koch Every mayor of New York City has had a foreign policy. That's Robert Wagner and john Lindsay even a beame of all had incidentents that became somewhat notorious. Bob Wagner wouldnt see Ibn Saud. I was very famous at that time. I believe that with 175 different races, religions, ethnic groups. I have to speak for them Robert Lipsyte But I'm saying, on this elevated level, why are you gaining to snap back at these dogs Ed Koch I don't perceive them as dogs. I would never denigrate the reporters in the columnist and the critics as dogs, I treat them as equals Robert Lipsyte You see them on your level? Ed Koch Of course I do. I believe that the media press television, radio is as powerful as government maybe more so Robert Lipsyte well, if they're powerful, if they're on on your level, then why are they after you so much. Ed Koch I've been around for 12 years. And I also respond, and I recognize the fact that a columnist is one person and editorial is written by one person. And if I have a difference of opinion, I will speak out. And I do have an ability, apparently, to take a complicated matter and make it understandable to a lot of people. Robert Lipsyte And that's and that's why they're after they're after you? Ed Koch They are after me because some of the colonists have a different ideology than I do. Others because it's a chic to attack whoever is in authority, others because they've become populace, which means say yes to any idiotic request of anybody. Robert Lipsyte That's your definition of populace. Yes to anything idiotic. You're a liberal with sanity, how different is that from a populist Ed Koch oh much different. I truly believe now that the populist believes that government is evil, that people should lock the door and keep the status quo moratoriums wherever you go. That's what the populist wants, as is, because that's what people in many cases want. I mean, they want the best for themselves. And when they've achieved it, if they have their own home, they don't want anybody else moving into the neighborhood. They have a nice view, they don't want it cluttered. Robert Lipsyte What's wrong with that? Ed Koch There's nothing wrong with it, but someone Robert Lipsyte you are the man who really said that sometimes we spend too much time and energy with the poor people, and not with the middle class who've gotten for home and gotten the view Ed Koch I have two things. Firstly, there's nothing wrong with someone being distressed, that his view is being blocked by a new building next to the river. But he should remember that his building blocks somebody else's building. And that's the nature of construction, so long as is reasonable and responsible. And you're now referring to my book, when I said that sometimes I wonder whether we don't do too much. In some areas. For the poor. I had a quote, which is not in this book, which I think is really apropos if the poor had received all the money that we had spent on the poor in the last 30 years, federal, state and city, the poor would be rich, I believe that the best thing you can do for someone who's poor, is get that person a job. And then they can take care of 90% of their problems, as opposed to government taking care of all of their problems. |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES
Robert Lipsyte Let's say that, by the power invested in me in channel 13, I make you Mayor for life, which means you don't have to worry about running for re election or you don't have to worry about the press unless you want Ed Koch like George Washington, I reject The crown. Robert Lipsyte No, no, no, no, you can't yet till the program's over. How can I give you Mayor for like, do you think you would be able to do things that you might not be able to do otherwise Ed Koch would not be worth it? I believe that democracy with all of its impediments, as Winston Churchill said is the best system even though it's a very faulty system, I believe that the public hearings that we have and off times that delays things, and we want to find ways to move things more quickly. Nevertheless, I would never do away with those public hearings. I would never do away with public input. Even if at times it stalls the price of the process. Robert Lipsyte But this means of course, you've got to run again and you've got to end up talking about the issue this time is is Ed Koch? Ed Koch Yeah, for the most part, not totally. Robert Lipsyte But what does that mean? I tell you what it means are people tired of you Ed Koch sure. They you've been around for 12 years. you around for 12 years? Robert Lipsyte I'll do it. I'll write and I hope you'll interview me on your program. But if they're tired of you, why are you imposing yourself on them again they have a choice to reject me to accept me I can't impose myself Do you think they could be right Ed Koch let me explain to you what the story is. We will we ever get to my book. Robert Lipsyte It's right here. Ed Koch I know this book, all of the profits Robert Lipsyte one camera right on that book at all times Ed Koch my profits, the advanced 100,000 all goes to charity, half the church charities and half the city charities like Meals on Wheels, so buy the book and the publisher is throwing in his profits as well and it's a good bet it'll sell more if you win the election. I wanted to sell now. Wait until now let me explain to you. I am now the underdog if you take polls, David Dinkins or RJ golden or others who might be running beat me, I believe I will ultimately win. And people say, Well, how do you explain the poll? I say, because at this moment, people really aren't evaluating the four people who are running. They're evaluating me ed coch been around for 12 years. Is there somebody out there who can do a better job? People will say, and my response is yes, but they're not running. When you get to the point where Robert Lipsyte you won't tell us who that person might be, it could be you. Ed Koch When you get to the point where you have to choose between any one of the three others who are running against me, I think people will choose me now you go back and look at the 12 years Robert Lipsyte that's kind of an elevated way of looking at it and seems wise, but still, the booing must hurt. Ed Koch sure it does. Absolutely. Because unfair at times. And other times, it's fair on my record, you see, I have an extraordinary record of achievement. David Garth, who, Robert Lipsyte in terms of people, don't lose the thought, I know you won't. But when you talk about people tired of you, after 12 years, can we separate? Are they tired of the way the city has been run? Are they tired of their own lives? Are they tired of programs? Are they tired of the personality of Ed Koch Ed Koch The last is probably what motivates most at this time think Robert Lipsyte do you think they know who you are? Ed Koch Oh, I think so. There's nobody that's been covered as much by the media as me. Robert Lipsyte And yet there's this sense. And I must say that I certainly sense that the public Ed Koch and the private Ed Koch have merged it's just there's one Ed Kosh, there's doesn't seem to be a secret life Ed Koch Is anything wrong with that what you see is what you get. It's that simple, I think so Robert Lipsyte they don't see in back to my thought about you as a kind of almost religious figure, whether it's jobe or Moses or Jeremiah, that your passion and your feeling have kind of merged you in the city, when people are yelling at you. They're yelling at the city, and they don't seem to be any other earthly pleasures for you. Ed Koch Well I wouldn't say that. But let me just say this. The highest compliment that was ever paid to me was by someone in the media who said, You are me, the quintessential New Yorker? Maybe I am maybe I'm not. I hope that applies. But what does it really mean? It means that I'm one of those lucky few less than 50%, who were born in the city of New York, I was born in the Bronx, so good. But I, I have that energy sense. That sense that we can overcome everything that we're proud without being arrogant. We like to talk about New York. I'm a big booster of New York. Now. Some people say your personality is getting in the way. That's what David Garth says, David Garth says, your accomplishments greatest housing program, probably in the history of the city of New York and bigger than the largest cities in America today. And building housing. Your personality gets in the way. And he said to me, You know, when I told him, I'm running for a fourth term, only two other mayor's have had three terms, Wagner and LaGuardia, none have had a fourth. He said, You know, if you continue to do it your way, Ed, you may win, but I think you will lose. But if you do it my way, said he, you will win. I said, What's your way, David? He said, Keep your mouth shut. I said, I don't think I can do that. David. He said, meet me halfway. I'm trying |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
Robert Lipsyte You're keeping you mouth shut half the time. But back to the issue of being you and in this constant sense of who is a coach. I mean, there's a sense that you've probably not read a book that didn't have some impact on New Yorker, your job seen a movie that wasn't New York stories. Ed Koch It was all overstated, but it is interesting to see the woody allen film. I'm in it. And I love doing it. It's just maybe 30 seconds. And I went up to Woody Allen after he had put the film together. And I said that I ended up on the cutting room floor, Mr. Allen? And he said no, you were very good. I really wasn't sure. And then I saw the film I and it was nice to see it's Yeah, it was a Best Supporting Actor. Oscar, I think we weren't you up next year. Robert Lipsyte Next year. Let me ask you two questions. One is I remember when I first covered you, of course, he was saying how am I doing? Yeah, you don't ask that anymore. Ed Koch That's untrue. Reporters say I don't ask that anymore. I do it wherever I go. You see reporters really manage the news. You know, that's lately coming out. They managed the news. Not very long ago, a reporter called my press secretary and said if the mayor said X, Y and Z about a particular matter, I'll get him on the front page of the paper. I thought the most of what an outrage. His question should be what is the mayor's position? Not if the mayor said, that is an outrage, you know what I'm sworn to secrecy in terms of tackling somebody who's protecting a reporter because I'm a columnist, and I can't give up my sources, Robert Lipsyte this is why you see them as equal. The other thing is something that really profoundly disappointed me was that I, I like you for a lot of different reasons. I'm one of the reasons was the way that you always refuse to ask the question, whether you gay with you or not, because to me it was your brotherhood with people of whatever persuasions, then it was kind of disappointed and wonder why you changed your mind? Ed Koch Well I'm gonna be brief about this, because the book specifically says I'm never going to discuss my sexuality, ever again, it's a personal matter. And I don't think anybody has a right to ask anybody about their sexuality. And I've led the fight for ending discrimination based on sexual orientation. And I'm very proud of that. And I nevertheless get attacked by many people in the gay movement, because they don't do what they want done, and a whole host of other areas where I might disagree with them. But the reference that you have was on a radio show. And the reporter in the context of the book, asked me that question, and I just simply responded, it was a mistake to respond, I should have done what I said in the book is never to discuss that issue. Again, that's what I should have said to him, instead of responding and then making a lot of news that I'm not going to respond to ever again. Robert Lipsyte I mean, it just seems amazing that somebody is smart and controlled, as you have always seen today would make any kind of a mistake |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
Ed Koch I don't think it was a mistake in the sense of a mistake. I said it was a mistake, a mistake, based on the fact that as a result of that became a subject of discussion, I did not think at the time that it would I now know better. I don't consider it a mistake. Robert Lipsyte Because your critics could say that, that and, you know, walking around with the cardinal was, again, that reaching towards the middle class Catholic voters, Ed Koch The fact is, I haven't liked the cardinal. And he and I have been friends since he came here in about 1984. And when he was elevated to the position of Cardinal he invited me to come to the Vatican and attend. And he had a dinner and he said to the 800, New York is only in New York and two people are constantly suing one another, as the mayor and I are be such good friends. So we have not in any way changed our positions because of our friendship. We're just respectful of one another. But this book was not my idea was his idea. He said to me one day or evening when we were having dinner at the residence. We have dinner six, eight times a year, half at the Cardinals residence and half in Gracie Mansion. He said, You and I should do a book together read you know, I have written two other books. It's not like this is my first read your two other right? They're good two aren't good. And I'm writing a fourth one. What's the profits for the third one and the fourth one all go to the city of New York. The fourth one is attacking the press now, except in a limited way. It will be all of my tough letters. I send out a lot of tough letters to a lot of people to press the churchmen, to other politicians, to citizens who are right. And I think that they're all on target and they're all responsible, but tough. Robert Lipsyte Do you think that they have impact they change things? Sure. Well, what happened to the kinder, gentler Ed Koch? Ed Koch You should have seen me 12 years ago, Robert Lipsyte I saw you 12 years ago Ed Koch Am I not kinder and gentler? Robert Lipsyte No you are not. The first time we ever met I was a reporter for the right I was writing column for the post 6am in the Bronx, she was shaking hands, right? I very tentatively introduced myself. You threw your arm around my shoulder and you say, Bobby, I'll buy you a bagel, right? And you and you bought me a bagel? No one has ever been Kinder or gentler than that I'm gonna buy you another bagel Haha, and not write a nasty letter at the end of this program. Now, let me let me ask you a nasty question. For people who wouldn't be looking for ways to kind of dig at you. There's something about the relationship between you and the cardinal, something kind of politically cynical, tell me that you are walking arm and arm with the cardinal towards a fourth term as you once walked on an arm with Bess towards a term. Ed Koch Okay, let's take it one at a top. I told you that the cardinal suggested that the book be written by the two of us. Second. It was the publisher who decided that this was the year that he would publish his Hearst, and it's the 100th year anniversary. So I had nothing to do with the original idea of the book and I had nothing to do with the date of its publication. People, you know, say I'm a genius to have thought that out nothing could be further from the truth with respect to Bess Myerson. I happen to be an admirer of hers. And I brought her into my administration. And she and I were good friends and have not seen her since her trial, but I only wish her well. And I'm glad she was exonerated. And I think the rest of the country was happy that she was exonerated. |
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Close up Ed Koch's newly released book, "His Eminence and Hissoner"
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
Robert Lipsyte Oh, sure, she went through a terrible time. Yes. But what we were talking about was how she was sort of your first lady or first lady to be before that election campaign. And in retrospect, a lot of people saw that as a cynical maneuver, actually, as your own David Garth, your own media adviser who said, Do you have the Smith brothers to beards? Ed Koch Listen, I will tell you this, I am very fond of Bess Myerson were friends. Obviously, there had been some breach as a result of what I perceived as wrongdoing on her part, but nevertheless, I still consider her a good friend. Robert Lipsyte Let me ask you a horrifying question. If, for some reason, God changes his mind, and you're not reelected. What would you do? Ed Koch Well, probably write a book. I'm gonna do that anyway, I think I'm a good administrator, I might consider going into some corporate field. I might consider columns or speaking, I don't think you'll have a tough time finding a job. Robert Lipsyte All right. No, no, there's no question. I'm sure you'll be in demand. But the point is that, at least in our minds, and I gotta believe in your mind to, you know, that that kind of New York is Ed Koch, and Ed Koch is New York, I mean, you've become very symbolic of the city. and the city is part of you. Ed Koch Well, you know, what was interesting was sure, I would miss it. I would miss. It's not the end of my life. I mean, the other day, someone asked the question in different form. They said, What's the first thing you'll do after you're elected? So I thought the moment I said, Go to the synagogue and say, Thank you, God, what's the first thing you'll do? If you're not reelected? I gave him the wrong answer. I should have said, I go to the synagogue and say, Thank you, God. Robert Lipsyte You've been talking about God a lot lately. And you've been talking what I thought was very interesting, was evoking the possibility of heaven and hell. Ed Koch Now I've always believed in heaven you really have always Yeah. Do you think there's anything wrong in that? Hmm, anything wrong in that always does that make interest ish? It makes you more interesting. Okay. It doesn't make me foolish in your eyes me good. In some ways, I'm sure that Robert Lipsyte It leads me to the next question is, is there a heaven or hell for Ed Koch? Ed Koch I don't know what that means. Robert Lipsyte Well, is there in First of all, is there an afterlife, Ed Koch I believe in in the afterlife, but see if you're Jewish, which I am and proudly, so it doesn't necessarily take the form of a corporeal return. There aren't people walking around on clouds or in fire? It can be the stars in the sky. We don't have a single feeling about that. And my mind is open on that. But I do believe in reward and punishment. I do believe that what you do here on earth will determine what your reception is in the hereafter and I believe in the hereafter. Robert Lipsyte What will your reception be? Ed Koch Well that's yet to be determined. I'm trying as hard as I know how to have it turned into a good reception Robert Lipsyte How does it look so far? How you doing? Ed Koch How am I doing God? Robert Lipsyte Something I've always wondered about you was that you're one of the few politicians who never has talked about his war record. I mean, you were an infantry sergeant. Yeah. Which impresses an infantry corporal like me. Did you kill anybody? Ed Koch Well, I shot it people whether or not I killed them. I cannot tell you Robert Lipsyte you shot them. Ed Koch Of course. Robert Lipsyte Did they fall down Ed Koch I didn't I didn't say I hit them. I tried to but I'm not gonna tell you. I did. Robert Lipsyte It was is that a painful period or something? Ed Koch I describe it a little bit in Vanity Fair. They have a 10,000 word article and I described the most painful moment for me in the course of the war was then a friend of mine name was Michael Barragan stepped on a shoe mine and screamed for help. And two of us, went to his side to help him until the medics came. And they're the bravest, because they picked him up and they walked through minefields. They were extraordinary. And his foot was blown off. And he said to me, my foot, my foot, and I said to him, Michael, you're okay. Your foots. Okay, I was lying. But I had to. I'll never forget that. The, I mean, the site was so gruesome. And he was this friend of mine. Although I've spoken to him recently, and he's, his life is full and he has children and his prosthetic device allows him to do everything anybody else would do, but I've always remembered that particular moment. Robert Lipsyte You think saying Michael, you're okay. Help them. Yeah. prevented him from going into shock. Ed Koch helped them, I'm convinced help them. Robert Lipsyte So lying was okay. Ed Koch Well, I believe that you can lie in very limited situations. If someone has cancer and they Yes, do I have cancer? You can say no you do not. I believe that if you fire someone, but they're decent people, they haven't done anything wrong. It's just they're not up to the job. And someone says where they fired, you can say no, they resigned. Robert Lipsyte And if the city is on the brink of disaster, and you want to avoid panic, you say, hey, we've got to even Ed Koch You never lie to the people about a city matter was never lie, because then you can lose your credibility. Now, it doesn't mean that you can't use language to temper the comment. But you must not lie about it. There's a difference, you know, is white lies. No, no, no white lie is a lie. a white lie would be selling somebody don't have cancer. a white lie would be saying your foots still on your foot or leg. But if, for example, when the city was in terrible shape pre 75 and and the Comptroller and the mayor were telling people to buy bonds, that's not acceptable. Robert Lipsyte Mayor Ed Koch thank you so very much for being with us today. Thank you. This is the 11th hour. I'm Robert Lipsyte. |
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Interview concludes. Host Robert Lipsyte thanks Koch, introduces the show and himself as show ends.
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Show credits run over Eleventh Hour graphics.
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Charitable Foundations are announced and overlay The Eleventh Hour graphic.
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Reel ends.
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