19711970S TELEVISION SHOWS
WOMEN WHO LOVE WOMEN: 7 LESBIANS!
WITH BARBARA LOVE, BARBARA GITTINGS, LILLI VINCENZ, ANNA SALVATO, MAGORA KENNEDY, RACHAEL PARKER, LYN KUPFERMAN
WITH BARBARA LOVE, BARBARA GITTINGS, LILLI VINCENZ, ANNA SALVATO, MAGORA KENNEDY, RACHAEL PARKER, LYN KUPFERMAN
This reel is part of one of our Specialty Collections. Online viewing or downloads of low-res versions for offline viewing will be available for only more day, though. Online viewing or downloads of low-res versions for offline viewing has now expired, though, and cannot be viewed online. "Pro" account holders can download a low-res version for offline viewing.
Sign up for a "Pro" account to download this footage.
This reel is currently not available for online viewing.
Sorry, this video is temporarily unavailable for online viewing or download. Please try again later.
Restricted Material
Access to this reel with audio is restricted. It will be available for only more day.
Access to this reel with audio has expired.
| 00:00:43 0.57 |
WOMEN WHO LOVE WOMEN: 7 LESBIANS!
WITH BARBARA LOVE, BARBARA GITTINGS, LILLI VINCENZ, ANNA SALVATO, MAGORA KENNEDY, RACHAEL PARKER, LYN KUPFERMAN - 1971 TALK SHOW ON FEMALE HOMOSEXUALITY (HF-YTV, DECEMBER 2018) David Susskind Yes, question. Audience Question The question. Well, I have a statement first, I think that all lesbians are butchs because all all lesbians are people. And the butch idea was the man thing. So since, you know, that's been said, we're up at women. And that's what it's all about. But we won't go to that. I want to agree with something you said, David, before. You said that, when a parent finds out the child is homosexual or lesbian, they feel that they've done something wrong. They have your right to have, they didn't send out another person to society, believing the lie, that heterosexuality was the only way that one person could express themselves and that's what they did that was wrong. And that's what they're guilty of that. You're happy? I agree with you. Right. David Susskind Your question? Audience Question Yeah. My question is to Rachel, is it. But you mentioned something about marriage. I don't know if I misunderstood you or not. You said something about your lover and you were going to marry her whatever. You said. Lesbians and other feminists have stated all along that marriage is oppressive. And I was just wondering if I read you correctly, if you felt that if you feel that homosexuals emulating hetero sexist society's viewpoint of what they do, and then we should do would make them feel better toward you Rachael Parker That question is good. Do you wish to get married to your lover? Rachael Parker Not not in the you know, the contractual sense that the straight society propounds Audience Question good. I just want to clear that up David Susskind A ceremony? A religious ceremony. Rachael Parker No nothing Like that. Audience Question No, no, I don't mean ceremony. I mean, role playing. I mean, actual marriage? Rachael Parker Oh, no, nothing like that. I mean David Susskind aren't you married? In effect? Rachael Parker No. David Susskind What are you doing? Rachael Parker No, we have a mutual agreement that we love each other David Susskind wouldn't be a common law marriage. Why do you object to it so badly, Barbara Gittings you just put us into your boxes. The whole point of our movement is that we're making our own boxes, if there to be any boxes whatsoever, we are no longer going to live by your expectations, and your value systems and your your demands for us, we're setting up. Barbara Gittings We are going we're going to live our lives. If only this, this thing had been in the air. 20 years ago, when I was trying to come out as a homosexual it would have made all the difference to me. We are defining our own lives for ourselves. We are setting our own expectations for ourselves. We're developing our own value systems. This is what it's about. You can't force us into our box into your boxes anymore. We're not going David Susskind May I ask you whether the same rate of change partners that prevails among male homosexuals is true among lesbians. There's a great turnover, by their own admission Rachael Parker is the turnover and the divorce rate among straight people. Unusual David Susskind they haven't yet what's unusual and high and depressing. But are you saying that it's roughly the same? Rachael Parker Are you implying David Susskind They change partners a great deal. Rachael Parker So do straight people Barbara Gittings They are called affairs when straight people do it David Susskind That's no answer. I've asked you whether the high rate of partner changing among homosexuals is equally true among lesbians? Barbara Gittings Well, you might as well ask whether the high rate of divorce among straight men is this is the same as the high rate of divorce amongst straight women. David Susskind We don't you don't have marriages and divorces, we simply you simply have affairs Lilli Vincenz Are you getting to the you're trying to Barbara Love I don't know whether it matters. I mean, do we have a value on staying together through life? I don't know. I mean, we have both values existing today. I don't know. heterosexual people don't want to get married. They don't want to be tied down to a contract. I think the only reason a lot of people do a lot of homosexuals might want to is because they've never been able to before. But I think the majority of homosexuals just want to pass by that. That horrible thing that heterosexuals had to have called a contract for life? And do what David Susskind well forget the contract. We're talking about promiscuity. We're talking about total Lyn Kupferman promiscuity? I think we should talk about commitment because homosexuals, lesbians and male homosexuals can be just as committed as heterosexual couples. And I don't think that that the turnover is any greater with with either sexual orientation. Lilli Vincenz David, I think they last about the same as straight marriages. I think that some of the reasons why straight marriages don't break up are obvious. It's very difficult. And sometimes there are children and in this regard, gay people have an advantage in that if they do want that if love is gone, then they can separate and usually they're not There are no children involved. This is an advantage. We don't have to live a sterile marriage. Because just bound by contracts and like children and we can, we can let it be a love relationship and when that is over it can when we can terminate it. But as far as lasting relationship, I think women have very long lasting relationships. And well, as people say, men are reputed to be more sexually oriented than women, women, I think, first of all, homosexuality. For women, at least in my view, is more an emotional, psychological orientation toward the same sex sex is part of it, of course, but love comes first. To me homosexuality means love, and sex part of that. And, well, I'm talking about again, the reputation of men are reputed straight to be more sexually oriented, and therefore, perhaps women are reputed to be more home loving. I don't know how true that is. But if that is true, then it goes without saying that gay women's relationship would be there would be to have the same kind of both would like David Susskind Has the new movement of women's lib and the gay liberation movement and the whole new attitudes of society, the new permissiveness made it easier to function as a lesbian, to meet other partners, or do you still have to go the gay bar route? Did you win? Barbara Gittings No. And if I had hadn't, if I if there had been this show tonight, 20 years ago, I wouldn't have had to go to the bars, I would have had models and images, I would have had some knowledge that my my people were out there that they didn't have to go to a bar subculture to find them. Barbara Love Yes I had to go for quite a long time. But today we can have we have open groups at universities, we can have dances at universities, we can go it's improved. I mean, we haven't we're not here yet. But society is gradually moving and David Susskind Do universities sponsoring lesbian dances. Barbara Love Gay Liberation college groups that are part of the Student Unions sanctioned by the universities, David Susskind You're probably the youngest, maybe in contention with them. Did you have to go the bar room when you're in your early 20s? Did you have to when you came out, go to the bars to meet your friends? Lyn Kupferman No, David Susskind you did not. Lyn Kupferman But I did have to Creek up the steps after about an hour and a half of standing at the bottom of those steps in order to go into a gay organization. David Susskind What does that mean? I don't know what you are saying Lyn Kupferman Well, it was the same trepidation before you go into that. Past that door that you think all these people are going to be stereotyped. And the way you've heard all these people are going to be stereotyped and you walk in. David Susskind A bar? Lyn Kupferman No you walk into an organization, David Susskind a club, Lyn Kupferman a club. David Susskind And you're expecting everybody to look butchy and tough Lyn Kupferman Femi. Yeah, David Susskind and they don't Lyn Kupferman No they don't they are human beings, just like maybe you and me David Susskind And that's where you found love at the organization. the dance. the meeting. Lyn Kupferman yes Magora Kennedy I would like to get back to one thing too, we talking about children. I happen to be a lesbian mother. I'm sure there are other women in probably out there in the studio audience is probably running around. I mean, not the studio audience, but the television audience in the world with this question about being a mother and being a lesbian or if there's a father being a father being a homosexual? I think that one of the things that really needs to happen is I think that parents, particularly parents should be more open with their children, David Susskind What is the range of age? Magora Kennedy my children are from 17 to four years old. David Susskind Do they know you are a lesbian Magora Kennedy Yes, they've been knowing every since they were knee high to answer if you want to put that you think it was interesting. I thought it was important that the children know that they hear it from me, rather than hearing it in street terms or street language. I think this is very helpful. I think it's very important to a child's development. My children, they it took them a long time they finally they're just now beginning to understand. If I had like kept it from them, I believe that it would have been more painful for them more painful for them than it was for me. I believe that children should know if the parents are this way David Susskind You don't figure that you may have dealt them some severe emotional damage. Magora Kennedy No, I don't because it's one thing. If I had if the blow the dealt the Severe Blow would have come from ,e hiding. I'm thankful that today. We no longer have to hide David Susskind Have you brought your females lovers into the home? Have the children known them and been friends with them Magora Kennedy the children have known that they haven't been many? Rachael Parker David, I could say something about this, I view my other two friends who are in their late 50s right now. And we're very good friends, and they are both very single career women. But they have had their love relationship going on for almost 30 years now. They met in college, and both independently decided to adopt children. They have adopted a boy and a girl, who are both now are the boys married, and he's 23. And the girl is 18 and very heterosexual. And I think it's important to note that children who have both either homosexual men or lesbian parents need not, you know, become that, you know, homosexual Magora Kennedy don't think they can are these I think, first of all, like, we should clarify, I would like to clarify this. But I don't believe that, again, it goes back to this whole thing, you know, these myths about turning gay, you know, being gay and whatnot, I think that if it's there, and if it is in a child, it should be allowed to develop without being repressed. If it's there, nine times out of 10, it isn't there, David Susskind would you encourage it, Magora Kennedy Um encouraging one of your I don't think encourage is the right word. If my child, if one of my children was inclined this way, I would not do anything to repress it. And I would make sure that the other children did nothing to this child to repress the child, either. I think that it's necessary that children also develop their own individuality. And also, I would even say this, that the younger children nowadays have a much better understanding than even they did in my generation, and the generation before David Susskind you have a unique household reverend Kennedy. We're coming right back. |
| 00:12:50 728.45 |
Cut to break - Blank
|
| 00:13:03 740.8 |
Slate card -Countdown clock
|
| 00:13:12 749.99 |
BACK IN STUDIO - INTERVIEW CONTINUES
David Susskind Barbara, you wanted to say Barbara Gittings Yes. In connection with your comments about children, I would say this, I think the children who are going to grow up to be homosexual anyway, should get this kind of encouragement, maybe not necessarily a, you know, an inducing kind of encouragement from the parent, which is what you were speaking about, but it should be in the air in the society, that homosexuality is perfectly all right, and that it's to be just as much valued and desired as a heterosexual orientation. To that extent, yes, it should be encouraged, so that it would be available for those who are going to grow up that way anyway, so that you can avoid the problems of telling people who are perfectly alright, that they're not all right. Rachael Parker Well, I would like to go, I would like to second that very heartily. And say that if society you know, as such, I think society has the problem, if they could only understand us as human beings, you know, not as a lesbian, not as a homosexual, not as someone who has a problem, because we have no problems. You know, we may have. except society Barbara Gittings your attitudes toward us are the problem. There's nothing wrong with homosexuality, what the only thing wrong with it is that you people are upset about it. A little a little, a little Psychiatric Research into. Magora Kennedy You see, like, I can understand why you per se would say that homosexuality is sick, because it's the same thing is like maybe perhaps somebody kept their foot on your neck for a long time. And maybe somebody just taped it off. So you feel like that you're able to step on somebody. Yeah, maybe it makes you feel good to be able to say that we are sick doesn't make you feel it's important. David Susskind Reverend Kennedy. Magora Kennedy Well, then, like you keep referring to this as a sickness. David Susskind I agree with the group's body of psychiatric medical. Barbara Love We have to point out something here that that it's necessary for heterosexual men to say that lesbians are sick because they must do that to keep them in a subordinate position. Rachael Parker I think it's important for you, I think it's very important for men to have this kind of ego trip to be able to point to a lesbian and say, well, she's sick. I mean, it does something I believe, you know, to the masculine image. David Susskind The boy homosexual. Don't lose your head because I feel equally about the girl homosexual? Magora Kennedy But maybe you do but like, I would say that on the whole we look at society, we understand that, that, although as bad as it's supposed to have been by society standards, you know, the male homosexual has been sort of a little bit more tolerated. And by that I mean that we go into, we hate to get into the whole thing about roles, but then there are the people that are in the fashion designing business, people that are into the hairdressing business. Magora Kennedy They are crucial that you need them. They're do your hair, they decorate the house Barbara Gittings We need them but they don't need you David Susskind They have a greater functionality Barbara Gittings what is this functionality? David Susskind Well she wanted to know why the male homosexual has been receiving a greater society societal tolerance. And I Magora Kennedy I didn't say I wanted to know, David Susskind I guess it is because the particular functional contribution he makes is rather necessary. So he's indulged Lyn Kupferman Lesbians have been performing these same functions, but perhaps they're not as identifiable as lesbians. Because it's easier for a lesbian to hide Barbara Love Lesbians are independant of men, I think that's what frightens them why why you believe so? Seemed to put us down a little bit. I think it's frightening that women aren't interested in you. David Susskind No, it's not frightening, but isn't society closed? In other words, do you have? Do you tend to group together? Would you know, other lesbian couples? Or would you have Barbara Love I know a lot of people heterosexual homosexual man, women Magora Kennedy some of our best friends are straight? Barbara Love I mean, would you have lesbians to your home? David Susskind I have. Barbara Love Do they know how you feel about them. Do you share with your family? David Susskind No I wouldn't sit down and tell the children the whole saga of their relationship. Lilli Vincenz Why not? David Susskind Well, because I think I don't Lyn Kupferman You could your children that they're lesbians and not go into the whole saga of their relationship. David Susskind Yeah, I think they should know they are lesbains Rachael Parker So So you would allow societies connotation of the word lesbian, no, to work with their minds within their minds. And you would not go into this further and explain that lesbians are women, and that lesbians love and they can relate to other women? David Susskind No, I wouldn't know why. You asked me when I go into it. And the answer is no, I wouldn't choose to pursue the subject with that kind of detail or intensity. Because that because it's one of those human illnesses that I don't choose to educate my children to dictate that, you know, they'll find out. Barbara Love But the way they find out mental retardation, Barbara Gittings it wasn't very long ago, that left handedness, which we now accept is something perfectly natural and perfectly normal. David Susskind You are not going to Equate lesbianism and left handed, Barbara Gittings there's a there's a parallel, I'm not going to equate them there is a parallel in the way society views them. Now, 50 years ago, 40 years ago, even 30 years ago, there was a lot of there are a lot of people were upset about left handedness. I remember when I went to primary grade school, there was a boy in one of my classes who had his left hand tied behind his back in an effort to force him to become right handed.This was not Philadelphia. But this was for no other reason than that people thought it was bad to be left handed. What has happened is not that we have some magical change of the psychiatric opinion, which now says left handed this is fine. It's simply that people stop fussing about it and stop worrying about it. And most of the problems associated with our panelists have disappeared. Now the day that you people stop worrying about us and stop fussing about us will be a day of liberation, when we will have to stop worrying and fussing about it too. And let me make another point about the psychiatric, this body of psychiatric literature that you're so devoted to. David Susskind It's a very rare occasion when I defend psychiatry. This is one of those. Barbara Gittings I don't like going back this far. But 450 years ago or so. It was absolutely the only way to look at the whole world that the sun revolved around the Earth, right? And all of the institutions of the day, the universities, the medical professions, religion, the churches, they all supported this belief. If you had had your show then and you had had Galileo Galilei as a guest would you be attacking him for daring to say that the that the sun does not revolve around the earth why how insulting to human kind what a daring and challenging thing he said, It was outrageous that he should say that the this David Susskind Your parallel between Galileo and lesbian, It's proposterous. Barbara Gittings The the body of knowledge had to be challenged. And I say that the body of knowledge, which claims sickness for homosexuality has to be challenged, Rachael Parker it had to be enlightened. Barbara Love I think what he's trying to say is if a majority of people believe something that doesn't make it true, as a matter of fact, is Bertrand Russell says it's most likely mean that it's ridiculous. Barbara Love Recognizing the average intelligence of, you know, the people total. I think that the masses believe it, it may probably probably is wrong, Rachael Parker David, I think I think it's important to recognize that a lot of the libraries now a lot, especially the women's, you know, libraries, at my university, we have a women's center. And we have a lot of gay literature in there not to, you know, convert straight women or anything like that. But to enlighten straight women, to enlightened society David Susskind Would your jobs be in jeopardy was you talked about your work and everything occurred to me, you're in a bank, with the bank's bosses, turn you out, you think? Rachael Parker I really don't know, I've been there five years. And I think that they would have no grounds on which to throw me out, you know, simply because I've been there five years, and I've been a very good worker, David Susskind Would it jeopardize any of the the jobs you've had Lyn Kupferman never did with me. Barbara Love I would have, but I've been my own employer for two years. Anna Salvato No, I think if you sit and talk to people, on person to person basis, whether they be the owner of the company, or a file clerk and deal with them as people, they will accept you as a person. And if they don't believe for themselves in what you're doing, well respected. On the other hand, I see I'm not used to dealing with people like us that are so immersed in heterosexual patterns. Rachel said that her her relationship wasn't marriage, they were you know, they were living together. I would call that a preferred union, you would call it common law. David Susskind I would call it something else. I was trying to make a case about you do have a kind of marriage. Rachael Parker Let's say this, this is your interpretation, you know, David Susskind Why do you object so strenuously to, to a random definition of random, you have a commitment, Barbara Love word, you're saying that that has been tact, like, man, you're talking about? David Susskind I say some look butchy and some look fem and they do Barbara Love You're talking about promiscuity. You're talking about sickness? I mean Rachael Parker These are generalizations, you've got a very gross generalization. You're making value judgments. Barbara Love That's pure David Susskind David Susskind will come right back to that vague possibility. |
| 00:23:51 1388.8 |
Cut to break - Blank
|
| 00:24:10 1407.91 |
Slate Card - Countdown clock
|
| 00:24:19 1416.82 |
BACK IN STUDIO - INTERVIEW CONTINUES
David Susskind Yes, say what you want to say, Rachel, Rachael Parker okay, first of all, I think David, you know, as moderator on the show, you have a great responsibility to your audience. And I really don't think you're fulfilling that at all. I think you are imposing your value judgments on all the people in your audience, the people here the people, you know, in the television audience, and I don't think that's fair, I think you should try to be a little bit more objective and more open. And I think you really should try to see what you are doing. I think you should be aware of the judgments that you are are making and saying, No, we're trying to inflict on the audience. And I don't think that's fair. David Susskind All right. Audience Question As a Free and liberated, homosexual practicing for over 20 years. I'm extremely disturbed about what I've heard here tonight on various other programs, about psychiatrists claiming us to be a sick group of people. What I want to know is simply how many psychiatrists can compare a record of a liberated person such as me that does not have a problem relating to heterosexual or homosexual society. I'm tired very much so of hearing them make this comparative level from people that basically are ill when they go there anyway, regardless of their sexual orientation. David Susskind I guess. Anybody want to comment on that? I guess you would all agree with that. Is it a myth that lesbians hate men? Magora Kennedy Yes, it's definitely a myth. David Susskind They simply reject them. Magora Kennedy Reject is not the right word David Susskind what is the right word. Magora Kennedy The whole thing is like, Well, yeah, don't relate is one word. Yes, and not attracted is another word. But I would even go to take that further. It's just the idea of preference. A woman relating to another woman, not rejecting men, not hating men, but just a preference. David Susskind All right. Now, is it possible for a lesbian to have relationships with men. Anna Salvato Is that possible? It's possible for lesbian to have sexual relationships with men, you know, two rabbits can make it together, you know? No, I The point is, it's a sexual preference. So why should a lesbian make it with a man when there are all these lovely women in the world? Barbara Love And also, what from what I've observed, including myself, I was heterosexual until I was 24. And I was engaged twice, I went out with lots of men. Now I've tried heterosexuality and I chose lesbianism and I think most women did try it at one time before they actually decided they would live as they wanted to say most heterosexuals haven't tried homosexuality. David Susskind I've gathered you've asked to run away did the decision with you is irrevocable. Barbara Love It's not irrevocable, I love the way I feel very good, the way I'm living, I'm very happy, Lyn Kupferman I'm very happy to where I'm living to, and I'm very happy with, with all of my friends, both straight and gay. And they accept me. And I accept them, whatever their lifestyle may be, if they're homosexual, or heterosexual, accept them. And my family accepts me. And I'm very happy being what I am a human being and a lesbian. Lilli Vincenz But we're not compelled to be gay, if that's what you're getting at. We don't have this compulsion to say, you know, never, never, never will ever touch someone of the opposite sex, it's very improbable that we will. But I would say that we're not compulsive homosexuals, as we're often depicted in the literature. And also, there's no need to define yourself when you come to very young people, like I was asked once, would you encourage it in a 14 year old person and well, and encourage it just as about, we would encourage that person to be herself. And whatever experimentation that involves straight or gay would be fine. And as Barbara said before, it should be certainly should not be discouraged. And you should be should be encouraged in a way that not not by seducing of course. But also she should be told that she doesn't need to define herself as either gay or straight. You never need to define yourself forever and ever and ever. You are free. We're flexible people as my fair, I think gay people are very flexible. Many of them have tried straight relationships. And they have they have a choice or they they have compared, and they have made a choice. And so so we're not dead set on one way we have blind we don't have blinders on. Magora Kennedy And also I think that, again, that I think you should be encouraged that people feed their children, young adults or whatever, should be able to choose the lifestyle that is best for them. I think this is one of the very things that has happened in society that we have been so programmed into going one particular way, tell to get off of this sort of credit to straight and narrow path is supposed to be something wrong with that I think that a person should be able to live their life as they see fit. And what is best for them. David Susskind Are any of your children of the five choosing a lifestyle? That's a bit out of the ordinary? I mean, yeah. Magora Kennedy Are you suggesting gay? David Susskind anything drug? So you're going to be able to choose any lifestyle, a person should choose a young person, any lifestyle he chooses? You said, right Magora Kennedy Well, my children are into no drug thing or anything like that. David Susskind Are they into any homosexual things Magora Kennedy If they were, if they were, this would be entirely up to them. I did very much to encourage my children's individuality. Barbara Love I think this is interesting. I think lesbian women do do this since they have transcended society and done their thing and live their own lives. I think they're they're very interested that their children live their own lives, whether they want to change their religion, their politics, anything. I think they're very interested in their children growing up as individuals because they have made that choice. Barbara Gittings You know, David, in this country, we have policy statements of various kinds, which give lip service to the idea of diversity and variety. But when it comes down to one's emotional and affective Life bang, the door is closed shot. And we are programmed and process to go into this one. One way lockstep forever and ever male and female, shall they go into the ark. Now this is cutting off all of the past all the other possibilities for people to love. One of the reasons I'm in gay liberation is to broaden the choices to open up the possibilities for people to make it possible for more diversity and variety. Isn't this what we believe in, in this country? I believe in it, and I'm practicing it. Why do you have such a vested interest in, in trying to channel people narrow down to program them for this one thing, this one way of life Rachael Parker to conform David Susskind I told you why several times in the audience hoops and howls and you refute it and deny it and that has to do with the body of medical evidence suggests that it is a mental operation Magora Kennedy The body of medical evidence could be wrong the way it was. It's so it's so impossible, I have no body of medical evidence could not have made a mistake. David Susskind It is possible Magora Kennedy Not only possible I'm almost sure of it Lyn Kupferman all of these psychiatrists you're referring to have also said that there is a certain amount of homosexuality and heterosexuality and every human being and all like that would include you it would include the CO producer, it would include your wife, your wife, your children, and the whole, your whole realm David Susskind Not the cameraman. They have a Very sensitive union. Lilli Vincenz I like to quote a a Washington DC psychiatrist on a television show who said that we're all basically bisexual, but in this society, homosexuality is bred out. And heterosexuality is trained in so that weird. So some people have some of us, though, don't respond to this training this conditioning. But it was a psychiatrist that said that. So there are some enlightened psychiatrists, Rachael Parker David, one of the important things, I think, in the women's movement, and this is the Women's Liberation Movement, as well as Gay Activist Alliance and other movements like that. We are trying to bring to the forefront, the concept that women no longer have to conform, they no longer have to be the narrow minded unscholarly woman, you know, the housewife, a typical housewife, now they can go on, they can get very good jobs, good education, this broadens their horizons, and this opens them. David Susskind Do you think the women's lib movement will be damaged by taking up the standard of lesbianism? Rachael Parker not at all because the most women's liberation is about relating to other women. And whether it be you know, an intellectual kind of love, or an emotional kind of love, or a physical kind of love. It doesn't really matter. But lesbianism I think is the is the ultimate, you know, a woman, you know, a person relating to another woman and I think that's where it's at. David Susskind We have to pause. Sorry Barbara, we have to get another message in. We'll be right back. |
| 00:33:51 1989.02 |
Cut to break - Blank
|
| 00:34:03 2001.32 |
Slate Card - Countdown clock
|
| 00:34:13 2011.15 |
BACK IN STUDIO - INTERVIEW CONTINIUES
David Susskind Barbara, you wanted to say something, Barbara Love I just want to say that women's liberation in groups like national organization, women, so they're fighting for women to be independent, to choose whatever kind of lifestyle they want. And lesbians want to be independent. I mean, it's the same movement, really now narrow, didn't recognize they wouldn't talk about it for a long time. And they had a very bad purge on burn whether you've heard about with a lot of officers and lesbians and people that supported the lesbians and people that supported the supporters of the lesbians, all pushed out of New York now. Now, this had repercussions throughout the country that the people were disgusted with themselves, the people that were involved in this and saw what they had done. They came out with a very strong, three page resolution for lesbianism recognizing lesbianism as a legitimate feminist issue, and that it was included in the right of all women to control their own bodies, their sexual preference and their own lifestyles, and they are actually supporting legally and morally, a test case of a lesbian mother who's having their children taken away from her. So now has after a very bloody incident in New York, thank heavens, David Susskind There a very big women's lib debate between Normal Mailer Lyn Kupferman liberation, women's liberation, would you say black lib? David Susskind At the big debate between Norman Mailer and Germaine Greer, and there was a lesbian administration that occurred during the evening. Do you recall. the the lady rushed in and took several of her close friends and started to did that damage, the cause of women's liberation that night and the reportage in the newspapers do you think did that work? Barbara Love No. I mean, anybody that Jill Johnston is a wonderful person. And I think we all love her. She's very real. She's very honest. She's very happy. And she, you know, she just does her own thing. And the fact that she kiss another woman on stage. I mean, any heterosexual would do that. Why can't I mean, really? I mean, you're being very biased when you think David Susskind I'm asking you about the impact in public relations terms on an important new movement. Barbara Love Well that's what has been afraid of. David Susskind Bizarre People like this. Magora Kennedy Bizarre people. Wait a minute. retract that word. Bizarre. David Susskind Bizarre as in strange Barbara Love Oh, David. David Susskind Bizarre as in Unconventional Barbara Love let me just say that within this resolution I was just talking about now recognize their culpability in saying we must change our priorities if images to come before principle. And I think that was very important because they have been putting their public relations image before the truth. And now they are no longer doing this. Because the truth is, there are many lesbians and women's liberation and there should be we're independent, all of our lives, we need all of the equal rights of women we need the more than women who are just going to let their fathers take care of them. And then their husbands were taking care of ourselves David Susskind that man has been very patient. Audience Question I like to say that I believe everybody on the panel will agree that the beautiful reason that we all can be here tonight is because of gay lib. But one thing I'd like to ask our sisters is higher than that the only time we really get that closeness together. After all, we've liberated liberated the the sexuy lib not wait for the actions to happen? And normally is suddenly one we're out there with a G and an A and a y. But why is it that constantly we can't work together towards a mutual goal? David Susskind You do not agree? Rachael Parker I think we're I think we're overcoming that because I think Christopher St. This year was an example of that. 10,000 homosexuals marching down the avenue of America, it's I think, proves that women and men, you know, gay men and women are getting it together. And I think that this is a trend. Audience Question Or could I say something Magora Kennedy That's a weird word. Why not liberation, Audience Question Liberation. That's right I agree. But a very good example is I belong to an organization which were very interested in having women join which a few do, but the majority of you prefer to be in your own group. Not that there is anything wrong with it. But you know, your sisters, your our sisters, we love you. We want to work with you. And we're working for one thing, and that's freedom from all oppression. Magora Kennedy Can to that? Alright first of all, like, as I said before, as far as men go, per se men have always been tolerated. Gay men. in there. Oh, yes. Yes, yes. If you look at again, we go back to this whole thing we look at where it comes from, as far as the person that is the hairdresser, the person that is the dress designer, the person that is the fashion designer, this is only only Oh, this is on carpenters union. Well, I write the carpenters union, whatever. But there's still there's been that level of tolerance, understand what I'm saying, you know, like, there's always been that level of tolerance. Women have always been in support of everybody else's thing. You know, looking at this, even from a black perspective, from a gay perspective, from a woman's perspective, it is necessary at this time for women to come together, to be able to come together and work together, not saying that on something big and large, such as she referred to as Christopher Street, that we could not come out and do whatever has to be done together. But on a small level, and getting back to women as a whole being able to come together. It's necessary at this time, that women that we as women, black, white, blue, or green come together and work out our own problems within ourselves, so that we can be about total liberation. Barbara Gittings I'm one of I have been in the gay movement since 1958. And except for membership in an all women's organization during a part of that time. I have been involved for the most part in organizations which were mixed that is men and women both as members and my current major commitment in a subgroup of the American Library Association, the taskforce on gay liberation is a mixed group men and women librarians and non librarians who are trying to revolutionize libraries and serving the needs of gay people. And from what I've told you, you understand why this interests me. But my I have to explain it my identification, I feel more strongly perhaps as a gay person, then as then in, say, women's liberation, because I felt very strongly. In high school, for example, there were the girls and the boys being processed for their adult heterosexual roles. And I had nothing in common with the girls, obviously. And I also had nothing in common with the boys. So who was there that I could pull around me, who was there that I could reach out to, if I had had a single homosexual friend in high school, man or woman, teacher or student, it would have made an enormous difference to me and saved me a lot of heartache later on later on. And I still feel very strongly my primary identification as a gay person, as long as the prejudice and the bigotry against homosexuality last. Lilli Vincenz There are several of us on the panel who work in integrated organizations. I've been in the magazine of Washington since 1963, is an integrated organization. And so and also now I'm in Washington, GAA. So there there are some of us who work in both women's liberation and and integrated groups Rachael Parker In the student homophile, Association of University, and we have a great many men and a great many women and we work very effectively together. David Susskind Several of you mentioned the university, out of universities, cooperating and encouraging lesbian groups, Lyn Kupferman they're encouraging people to be able to express themselves, which is what a university should do. David Susskind Is this east, Midwest, wher Lyn Kupferman all over the country. David Susskind So when you say that there's a meeting hall or as it would be a photographer's club be it play chess club, there's a lesbian club, Lyn Kupferman homosexual homophile Barbara Gittings Or gay organization. David Susskind Will you name some colleges where this is Anna Salvato Columbia, NYU? Lyn Kupferman You name some and we'll say yes or no. David Susskind It's a new world. We're coming right back. Magora Kennedy There's Gay Alliance at Yale. |
| 00:42:54 2532.05 |
Cut to break - Blank
|
| 00:43:07 2545.46 |
Slate Card - Countdown clock
|
| 00:43:16 2554.09 |
BACK IN STUDIO - INTERVIEW CONTINUES
David Susskind Do you look favorably on these campus groups? Barbara Gittings Oh, absolutely. It's a it's a, it's a liberation for people who are very much in need of it. And furthermore, it's coming in the high schools David Susskind Oh that's thrilling Barbara Gittings Yes it is. David, the acceptance of gay organizations and people connected with gay organizations on campuses. Is is, is very, it's coming very strong. The acceptance is not at all as difficult as as people had thought it would be. The most famous example is that of Jack Baker in Minneapolis. David Susskind He ran for president of the student union Barbara Gittings He won he is he was elected president of the student body of the University of Minnesota. David Susskind He had posters of himself on high heels Barbara Gittings He was elected on a platform concerning various issues that the students were interested in. And he has, he was he was one of the founders of the gay organization on the campus and the fact that he had founded it, and that he had done this thing which was, which was considered, you know, challenging and forward was in his favor in the election. It was not counted against him, it was counted in his favor. David Susskind If I were president of a college and the suggestion was made...I'd throw the outfit right off campus Barbara Gittings You'd have a court fight on your hands because you can't go around Barbara Love Well in fact there was a court case at a State College and the Court ruled that the university had to accept the gay group. David Susskind The University had to accept the gay group as as one of the members clubs Barbara Love In San Jose as a recognized club David Susskind Now Some questions. I asked some ladies in the office if they were lady. Lyn Kupferman Some women David Susskind Yeah, ladies women is there is a difference Magora Kennedy Yeah there is a difference. Women David Susskind Lady is a bad word pejorative. Why is it pejorative? Barbara Gittings Are you a gentleman? David Susskind Yes. Barbara Gittings Aren't you a human being. A man First, David Susskind I take the one virtue gentleman anyway that they happen to be ladies there and they are also women. And I asked them what would you like to Ask these seven guests tonight. Tell me what a woman straight woman would would ask. Lyn Kupferman Do you know if they are straight David Susskind I'm pretty sure yeah. I wouldn't fire them. I know your next question Magora Kennedy Would you hire them had you known, David Susskind Would I have hired them had I known well, if they had the same competence, yes, of course. Barbara Love How would you know? David Susskind you just said If I had known Lyn Kupferman Would you give them a typing test? David Susskind How many words you type a minute, how fast you take shorthand? Where are your references from other joints you have. But now I'll add a new question that I hadn't thought of before. Anyway, can I get can I get to this? Do you understand why a straight female is shocked when approached if approached by a lesbian? And further if you are the straight, how would you react? Lyn Kupferman I was straight when I was approached lesbian David Susskind Do you understand. Were you shocked Lyn Kupferman I wasn't shocked in the least I thought it was wonderful. Magora Kennedy Also, like I like to relate to that a whoever this woman was in your office, you know, like, we should kind of go back and tell her you know, like, the whole thing is like we read in the papers day by day women are getting raped, main new latest, whatever men are doing these things, you know, I find it so you know, I find it funny. If I may say funny or comical that you know, like once a woman or a straight woman hears the word lesbian they go oh, you know like this, you know? And when it's men are the ones that do these horrible things. I never wanted to David Susskind The answr to the question. Do you understand why a straight woman is shocked? Magora Kennedy No. No, I don't understand that other women. Lilli Vincenz Some straight people think that they would be automatically targets for gay for gay encounters doesn't mean that they necessarily consider they may not be attractive or even desirable enough. But many Barbara Love David I'm not interested in men but I'm flattered if they are attracted to me or something. I'm not interested in them. But I'm flattered. I'm certainly not shocked David Susskind Next question. when you're attracted to a female Anna Salvato Yes, I can understand why she saw shocked because she obviously has been immersed in all the heterosexual bunk that you've been immersed in and other working for you have been immersed in? Of course, you would be shocked like a lesbian is David Susskind Alright Next question sex quite a while. Next question. When you are attracted to a female when you're attracted to a female? How do you know she is a lesbian? Or would you approach her in any event? Lyn Kupferman You would you approach a person as a human being first, don't you? Or do you always approach them as a sex object? David Susskind Obviously you give me no choice. I'd approach them as a human being. Why don't you answer the question Lyn Kupferman since lesbians are human beings to them, they would also approach another person, be the person male or female as a human being, David Susskind therefore, you are not approaching on some visceral hunch that she's a fellow lesbian, you're approaching because you're Magora Kennedy A fellow lesbian? David Susskind What? Magora Kennedy Follow lesbian David Susskind ladies, a female lesbian a woman lesbian. I don't know. another lesbian. David Susskind Can I answer that from Okay, let me answer this from my perspective. Um, what happened was this question came up because I knew I was going to be on your show. So when I had went around in New Haven, and I was you know, like talking to men about being a lesbian and whatnot, I want to hear what they had to say. And they asked me this question, and I answered it this way in my way that this is only my opinion. Now I understand that I would not approach a heterosexual woman to what I look for as a lesbian in a woman and what a man looks for in a woman is two different levels. David Susskind So you would only be attracted probably to another lesbian. Magora Kennedy No, I'm not no, no. Barbara Love I think your two women are attracted to each other I think it's a mutual thing I mean, as it should be with a male and female unfortunately, David Susskind I have just a minute left Barbara Love unfortunately, there are many rewards for David Susskind In a famous article in the new york times the more Miller remember. did a piece on but on this on homosexual he finishes it with this paragraph gay is good. Gay is proud. Well, yes, I suppose so. If I didn't give it a choice but who is I would prefer to have been straight Barbara Love That's Merl Miller we don't feel that way David Susskind given a choice. You'd be the way you are. Lilli Vincenz Certainly definitely I'd be myself. This is all anyone can ever hope to be Magora Kennedy Also, I would like to say that like you before your last minute winds up that one of the things that I am About and is to change the image that people have of gay people. This was one of my four points for becoming a minister. I wanted to be able to relate to people. I like going into churches talking to older people and younger people to change the whole outlook. I want that there should be and I'm sure that all of us want as there should be an understanding of us as human beings. David Susskind Okay, we have to call us back in a minute. |
| 00:51:15 3033.44 |
Cut to break - Blank
|
| 00:51:28 3046.27 |
Slate card - Countdown clock
|
| 00:51:37 3055.29 |
BACK IN STUDIO - INTERVIEW CONCLUDES
David Susskind The ladies the women want me to say that they are here tonight to change society or try to not to have society change them. I think they've done well in that direction. Thank you for being with us. Join us again next week at the same time till then good night. |
| 00:51:51 3068.64 |
REEL ENDS
|
Jump to this point
