1979TV TALK SHOWS
PART 1: "DEAR ANN LANDERS ..."
(HF-YTV)
PART 2: "THE CULTS ANSWER BACK"
WITH GADDAHAR PANDIT DAS, RABINDRA SWAROOP DAS, DIANE KETTERING, ARTIE MAREN. MEMBERS OF RELIGIOUS CULTS OF CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY & THE HARE KRISHNAS.
(HF-YTV)
(HF-YTV)
PART 2: "THE CULTS ANSWER BACK"
WITH GADDAHAR PANDIT DAS, RABINDRA SWAROOP DAS, DIANE KETTERING, ARTIE MAREN. MEMBERS OF RELIGIOUS CULTS OF CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY & THE HARE KRISHNAS.
(HF-YTV)
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PART 1 - SUSSKIND IN THE STUDIO WITH ANN LANDERS:
David Susskind 0:00 What do you find is bothering men most these days, the letters that you get from the male of the species? Ann Landers 0:21 I think that some men are coming up more threatened by women. I think that the fact that the women are working with them and sometimes women are taking their jobs or women are their superiors are being promoted above them. This bothers men. I think that men are concerned about money. You know, it's very expensive just to live today. I don't know where this is going. But it's it is the cost of living is astronomical. Men are concerned about it. A lot of men are concerned about their sexuality. Many men are wondering whether or not they're all men. Sometimes I get letters from men who say, you know, suddenly I get feelings about other men. I mean, am I going crazy? Am I gay? Am I what David Susskind 1:02 is there less that Ann then impotency? Just sudden inability to perform. Ann Landers 1:09 There is a great deal of impotence today, and I'm hearing about it in a way that I never heard about it. Several years ago, young men are becoming impotent, temporarily, David Susskind 1:20 is that because of the shifting relationship of the sexes where the women take the initiative, where the women sees the date overture, they say what are you doing? Why don't we go back to your play? Isn't that a kind of a deflationary thing? Ann Landers 1:36 It's a it's a reversal of the roles that is it's almost not normal man, I think by nature want to be aggressors, but sometimes women are today women are be are excessively aggressive and where they take the initiative away from the man. And this can create impotence. David Susskind 1:55 What is the answer to that? Because more and more women are asserting their equality in all matters, job opportunities and sexual relationships. What what? Ann Landers 2:07 It's a problem because there are no easy answers. Women are out there and they're out there to stay. 1/3 of these students at Harvard Medical School are women. Almost the same percentage at Yale in law school. Women are out there. They're going to be engineers, they're going to be a geologist, architects, doctors, lawyers, women are out there in large numbers. I think the men had better get used to the idea. Nothing's going to change, it's going to become more so I think this is good. But I do think that women, you can be a lawyer or a doctor, but you should be a woman first. I think femininity is marvelous. And I think that many women lose a great deal when they become too aggressive. And they seize the initiative. They cheat themselves. David Susskind 2:57 Is it very difficult for a man to pay those obese ances to women that have been traditional? When she is so clearly competitive, equal? And that kind of competitiveness tends not to be very feminine. Ann Landers 3:12 Yeah, I know. David Susskind 3:13 It's hard to give her your seat lighter cigarette, take her chair out at the table and sisters, don't you think? Ann Landers 3:20 Yeah. I myself have never had any problem with it not being in journalism for many, many years. Most. When I started, there were not that many women in journalism. I never had a problem with it. Because I was a woman first. And I never tried to be one of the fellas. I never used four letter words. Even today. I don't like four letter words, particularly from a woman I find it very offensive. I think some women have to learn this. You're not one of the guys. You shouldn't try to be one of the guys. It's very unattractive. David Susskind 3:55 What about the ideal of romance? Is that vanished? Are people in love with love the way they used to be before? Ann Landers 4:04 I hope so this David Susskind 4:05 All this modernity? Ann Landers 4:06 I hope so. I think it would be a tragedy if it weren't sold. But I can see that it is vanishing. People are getting tougher. They're getting more practical. They're getting, I think, less romantic. They're more matter of fact, some young people think that it's too mushy stuff. I think that's kind of sad. I'd hate to see that go. I like Valentine's. I like little crazy gifts David Susskind 4:37 you like to equate love making with love, right? Ann Landers 4:43 Well Isn't love and love making is just a physical exercise. Its bedroom acrobatics, that's all it is. If there isn't love there is nothing much left of value. There's got to be caring and feeling and sharing If you don't have that you don't have anything David Susskind 5:03 then stay out of bed. Ann Landers 5:04 Stay out of bed David Susskind 5:05 Yeah, don't go to bed. Ann Landers 5:06 That's right. David Susskind 5:07 If you could give one piece of advice to a mass audience and that's what we've got right now. What would you select? What would you tell people? Ann Landers 5:20 I would say, be kind. The world needs kindness. There are so many people around who who who are hungry for just Hello. A telephone call. Kind word a little compliment. I love but HL Mencken said years ago, he said, If you want to make the world a happier place, wink at a homely girl. I like that. You see the good looking chick, she gets lots of winks. But the homely one doesn't get much and the world needs this. Wink at a homely girl. So many people are wearing masks. They've got that facade up. Yeah, somebody, how are you? Oh, fine. Well, maybe they're not so fine. So I think it's terribly important to remember this. Go out of your way to, to say something nice to do something thoughtful. That would be my advice for everybody. David Susskind 6:28 Very interesting. Woman. Do you know that when I go around to colleges, and they asked me questions, they always say, what guests? Have you enjoyed the most? Well, there was Bertrand Russell, Anthony Burgess, and Bill Moyers William Sloane coffin. I always include Ann Landers. Ann Landers 6:47 Thank you, David. That's very generous. Well, that's great. That's great company to be in. I like all those people very much. David Susskind 6:54 You're a fascinating woman. And you're a wonderful conversationalist. And I've always had a good time with you. Ann Landers 6:58 Thank you David Susskind 6:59 come back again. Are you sure there isn't a question you'd like to ask me? Because I don't want you to leave with any intellectual. Ann Landers 7:08 Let's leave it this way. If I should happen to think of something, I'll call you. David Susskind 7:12 And on the other hand, if you should get a telephone call from a gentleman in the audience between 50 and 55, with a bald head, and not very rich, but a good sense of humor, who can support himself and says, I'm a friend of David Susskind Ann Landers 7:29 I'll take the call David Susskind 7:30 take the call. And if he asks you to do something precipitous phone me before you say no, Ann Landers 7:35 I promise David Susskind 7:36 I don't want you to blow it Ann Landers 7:37 I promise you, David Susskind 7:39 Alright come back again. Ann Landers 7:40 Thank you very much. David Susskind 7:41 Anyway, that's it, we'll be back for more. |
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PART 2 - SUSSKING TALKS TO TWO HARE KRISHNAS AND TWO SCIENTOLOGISTS:
David Susskind 8:10 Are the new religious cults, the Harry Krishna is the Scientologists, among others, getting unfair treatment from angry parents and deep programmers and the media. My next guest thanks. So there are members of two such groups who are here to present their case. First Gadadhar Pendit Das is director of a food relief program for the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. When Mr. Pandit joined the group three years ago, he was working towards an advanced degree in accounting. Rabindra Swaroop Das has been a member of the Krishna society for eight years. Rabindra is a graduate student in religion, and is married with three children and actress and model Diane Kettering became a Scientologist eight months ago. Artie Maren is Director of Public Affairs for the Church of Scientology in the United States. Mr. Maren has been a Scientologist for 16 years. Why have you chosen to join remote cultural groups? Rabindra Swaroop Das 9:16 Well, I don't think I chose to join a remote cultural group I chose chose to join the Krishna Consciousness Movement, which just incidentally, happens to be at the present time a remote cultural group. I'm not wasn't looking to be strange. I was looking to find what I wanted the truth, a way of life that I could live with dignity, and I found it here. David Susskind 9:36 I think a lot of people forgive me one minute. A lot of people see you in the streets of their cities and at the airports where you tend to congregate. Wonder why traditional religions proved unsatisfactory what happened to those young people? Why did you fall away from where you were Methodist or Baptist or Catholic Rabindra Swaroop Das 9:57 Sort of Methodist sort of Baptist in between. I had fallen away long before I became a Krishna devotee. And I suppose if Christianity had been presented to me in the way that the Krishna Consciousness had been with the conviction of the devotees, and with the real, earnest following of the teachings, which I that was my big complaint with the religions I grew up with, I didn't see that the teachings were being followed. And I saw that in Krishna consciousness, and I was attracted by that sincerity and determination and integrity, that there were strict teachings, but they're being followed. And so I gave it a try. David Susskind 10:38 Doesn't the deficiency of the religious orders in America, isn't that at the doorstep of the parishioner and not the church, not the teachings of the churches. In other words, the failure to be impressed by the fact that religion wasn't being practice was not the fault of the religion. That was the fault of lackadaisical, Methodist or Baptist. Artie Maren 11:06 Well, that could be true in some instances, David Susskind 11:08 Why did you go to Scientology Artie Maren 11:10 well, Scientology is slightly different than Krishna consciousness in the sense that it is used as a tool with which to bring about a relationship with God and greater understanding, which does not change a person's religion in any way. We have rabbis who are Scientologists, priests who are Scientologists, all of whom we use the the tools, especially the communication tools of Scientology, to better their lives, and better do what they do. David Susskind 11:33 Why do you need a tool to God? Why can't you do believe in God? Diane Kettering 11:37 Yes. Definitely David Susskind 11:38 Why can't you believe in God directly without an assist from Scientology? Diane Kettering 11:43 Well, what Scientology assists me in is more identifying myself as a spiritual being, as well. And when you said, like, Why did I turn to Scientology? I met some people that are Scientologists, which is just incidentally, last summer. And there are people that were like, really happy and very doing the things they enjoy doing. They seem to accomplish things in a very short period of time. And I looked at that, and I said, Now what is it that they're doing? And when I started reading and studying Scientology, I found that these tools assisted me, as in day to day life, as well as just like Artie said, a tool to God. This is like, a way I can achieve my goals, Artie Maren 12:24 It's a way that one knows more about himself as well, which is always I think, a first step towards knowing God better as well. David Susskind 12:31 I'm just trying to figure out where did Catholicism Judaism, Protestantism, where did they fail Gadadhar? How did you come to the realization you needed something as different as Hari Krishna? Gadadhar Pandit Das 12:46 Well, you mentioned why didn't we choose a traditional religion, Krishna consciousness is a traditional religion. It has ancestry that goes back over 5000 years, and I particularly had been studying the books of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, for about six years. And through quite a detailed study, which initiated at a Christian college carried me through an experience at a Zen Buddhist monastery, I came to the final conclusion that for theological reasons, I preferred the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness above the theologies of other. Rabindra Swaroop Das 13:21 That's a fact there is something to that. I mean, like this book, Bhagavad Gita, I have just never in my experience, and as I was a graduate student in religion, I'd spent before I encountered devotees, I'd spent three years in graduate school studying various scriptures. And when I finally ran across the Bhagavad Gita, that my spiritual master presented, I had just never seen the theistic philosophy, the science of the soul and the relationship with the soul with God presented in such a clear, comprehensive and authoritative manner, that was just the best thing I'd ever seen. And that was what was so impressive. So that that had a lot to do with just the factually, the, the Indian theistic tradition is an incredibly advanced and wonderful tradition. And I think that instead of trying to persecute us or de programas, that if the traditional churches could learn something from it, I think they would all be enriched. David Susskind 14:22 What can we learn from from it from your faith, from my Oh, you use you solicit monies, you're begging in the street, Rabindra Swaroop Das 14:31 not begging, not begging, David Susskind 14:33 you are begging, Rabindra Swaroop Das 14:34 what's done, I take your money when I take your money, but he wanted to give you a book. When I take something and I give you something that's not begging in the last five years, our movement has distributed 80 million pieces of literature and that is our missionary work. By distributing these Vedic literature. We're hoping to spread the word of Krishna consciousness to everyone and it's very democratic process. It gets around and in this, this is our missionary work, so we're really not begging Gadadhar Pandit Das 15:00 Our message is essentially non secular. We're not trying to propound the Hindu faith upon people who may be Catholic or Protestant. What we're trying to do is insist that people of any persuasion, follow the regimen of their scriptures strictly, that instead of compromising the Word of God, which in effect negates it, that you follow that word in the scriptures. David Susskind 15:21 How are you proselytizing? Artie Maren 15:24 Mostly through literature and books, sales of books, and mostly, predominantly through word of mouth? An individual who has experienced Scientology counseling or been involved in some way, wants to tell a friend who does I wanted to address the question before to momentarily in that what other religions could look at as far as the the newer religions emerging now is perhaps that there is more participation for one. I know that Christian people as well as Scientologists view their involvement with religion as a daily thing, as a minute by minute thing, not just Sunday, or not, when it's time to put your attention on the spiritual values of living, but that it is, religion is the individual. It is something that he he does and demonstrates and, and lives with all the time. And I think it's a reflection of where this country is moving, that we are moving out of a materialistic type of viewpoint into a more spiritual approach to to life and man, and perhaps we are David Susskind 16:29 I would hate to think that Scientology and Harikrishna is an indication of the direction of this country. I would like to think that there fringe movements that represent some kind of protest. Well, intentioned Artie Maren 16:40 but it's not that the historical negligible, but that is history. They said the same thing about Christ, every major religious leader that David Susskind 16:47 You can't take seriously a religion or what do you call yours, a cult? What are you Artie Maren 16:52 A sect is four letters, same four letters, it's just as easy to say. David Susskind 16:56 You do resent cult? Artie Maren 16:59 only in this redefinition David Susskind 17:00 since Ghana, Artie Maren 17:01 Well way before that Rabindra Swaroop Das 17:02 Long before Ghana it was redefined, Artie Maren 17:04 you know, cult, in its in its essence is a closed society. Scientology is not a closed society by any means. Neither are the Krishna groups. But it's a good derogatory term that's easy to say, and kind of lumps everything together. It's all their a cult. We are religious philosophy, and an applied religious philosophy, whose derivations go back to the Vedic hymns similar in Eastern thought to the Krishna conscious movement. But those who don't want to see for themselves, those who are not self determined enough or don't feel that they can look for themselves have an easy way out by saying, Oh, it's a cult, and therefore you're boxed and categorized. And that's it. And I think the viewers will see from this programming, and hopefully you as well, that we're not that way, neither are our 1000s and 1000s of other Scientologists, or the Krishna people and so on. Diane Kettering 17:55 The reason that, it's great, well, the reason that I think that it's a religion is it, because it deals with me as a spirit. Now, I still go to church, and I'm Lutheran. And it doesn't mean that that side of my religion drops away. It's just that this is looking at another part of me as I'm not just this body, you know, like there's someone inside of me. So that's how come I think it's a religion and why we call ourselves a religion. David Susskind 18:19 Hold it, we'll be right back after this pause. |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
David Susskind 18:46 I wonder how intelligent people can take seriously a new religious movement, whose founder was so a candid about it all he said the biggest buck I'm paraphrasing him, but I'm not doing him an injustice. The biggest buck to be made is to found your own religion, right? Artie Maren 19:05 Well, you're not doing any injustice, only in the sense that he never said that David Susskind 19:09 Yes he, Well, I could dig in the research. He said something else. Nothing compared to finding your own religion. That's where you can make a big buck. Artie Maren 19:18 No, he never said that he has printed probably 6 million words. Out of those those books and books filled with wisdom and truth. Several individuals have invented phrases attributed to him that were never made. Now we I have spent I have been in public affairs for 10 years. I have spent at least five years trying to find the originator of that statement, where it was said how it was said to whom. The best we did is that in 1949 group meeting convention, someone claimed that he had made a statement similar but they couldn't remember exactly what he said David Susskind 19:58 Can I tell you what he said. Becuase I have done the research in the New York Times of July 28 1977 quotes Hubbard L. Ron Hubbard, speaking to a group of writers said writing for a penny, a word is ridiculous. If a man really wanted to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion, Artie Maren 20:19 right? Because he wrote to the LA to the New York Times and said, what is the source of that statement? They said, I'm very sorry, but our file is missing. And we don't know. David Susskind 20:27 Did you take the file? Artie Maren 20:30 Did we take the files David Susskind 20:31 Yes you have all taken files, the Scientology's have raided government, establishments haven't they Artie Maren 20:37 if you believe David Susskind 20:39 I do. Artie Maren 20:40 Well, alright, let me finish the statement. There is without question, a controversy and battle going on between Scientology and the government at this time, and has been probably since 1951. One of whether the government can keep secret, a considerable amount of nefarious acts and deeds, including the raiding of our files, not more than two or three years ago, were in the raidof the Church of Scientology with sledgehammers, and every everything else, and took wood back to their offices, some 1000s and 1000s of pages of freedom files, or Independent Journal the Church of Scientology loaded with government crimes, which are now surfacing. I don't know if you've been reading the New York Times and and The Washington Post's LSD experimentation by the government, so on and so forth, all brought out by the Church of Scientology. David Susskind 21:36 Mr. Maren, in July 1977. The FBI raided Scientology headquarters in LA and Washington. Artie Maren 21:43 Correct. David Susskind 21:44 They found Artie Maren 21:44 134 FBI agents. David Susskind 21:46 That's the number they found stolen government documents, bugging equipment, burglary tools, dossiers on judges, on the basis of these raids, 11 Scientology leaders, including Hubbard's wife were indicted on charges ranging from burglary to obstructing justice. True. Artie Maren 22:05 Alright, now I have a chance to comment on that. David Susskind 22:08 Is that true? Artie Maren 22:08 No, it's not. David Susskind 22:09 They didn't raid. Artie Maren 22:11 They definitely raided no question David Susskind 22:13 They didn't find asorted burglary tools Artie Maren 22:16 They claim that during their inspection of our premises for which we were not allowed to be present. They made up the list of what they claim they found. And they went off, they didn't include, for instance, that they took copies of the Bill of Rights, our correspondence with our attorneys on suits against the government that they didn't include. Now that is going before the courts if it's not thrown out as an illegal search and seizure to begin with. That's where it will be determined exactly what was found exactly what they listed, and where those documents came from in the first place. And we're looking very much forward to that. David Susskind 22:51 The grand jury indicted 11 Scientology leaders was that grand jury fixed, tampered with? Artie Maren 22:58 Well, it's been known to happen. I don't know. I wasn't there and that grand jury David Susskind 23:03 does that kind of chronology. Factual chronology upset you about Scientology? Rabindra Swaroop Das 23:10 I have seen so many I used to believe the newspapers. And then I've seen arguably David Susskind 23:17 Do you believe Grand Jury indictments. Rabindra Swaroop Das 23:18 No grand jury indictment is a grand jury indicted and we the leader of our Krishna Consciousness temple in New York was indicted by a grand jury for kidnapping by mind control and was kept in the press for a little while prosecutor managed to keep the ball in the air and then the judge threw it out with a warning to all prosecutorial agencies not to try anything like that again, so I can know about grand juries. Gadadhar Pandit Das 23:38 He sounded a dire Cabot, which is not to be confused with a dick Cabot, but it was a warning that the type of taking the law in your own hands, a kangaroo court, if you would, is not acceptable to democratic processes. David Susskind 23:55 Grand jury indictment should not be confused with kangaroo courts. They are part of the constitutional process in this country Rabindra Swaroop Das 24:01 that's all right, but this grand jury was fixed, Gadadhar Pandit Das 24:05 David Artie Maren 24:06 did Grand Jury abuse. I mean, I don't even want to talk about our specific reference here. But there is a there has been a movement including major judges and personalities and attorneys in the bar association itself, about the grand jury system. We are not talking about a sacrosanct agency or a procedure that is without fault by any means. There have been movements David Susskind 24:28 No no no evertyhing human is flawed. Artie Maren 24:31 But there are movements to abolish the grand jury system in the United States, many states already abolished it. England which started the grand jury system has nothing to do with it. Because it can be used as a sword against people as opposed to a shield for them, which is its original intention. So I wouldn't just buy it out of whole cloth and say, Oh, well, it's grand jury therefore it's perfect. There's a lot wrong with the Grand Jury Diane Kettering 24:53 I find it amazing that when I talk to people about Scientology, that's like all they know about it. They just know that you know, they read and such and such magazine or whatever. And I had that problem a little bit with my parents until they really understood that Scientology was something that was really good. And that from the time I went into it until now, say, for example, I used to be very heavy drinker. And I don't drink, I have no problem, no drinking. I had, like, problems. I was divorced, blah, blah, blah, you know, like that. When my parents saw that, that was what Scientology is doing for me. And not all of the stuff you read in the papers about indictments and whatever, they began to get an understanding of it and really support me in it. And it seems to me that's the problem with people is they're just taking what they read in the papers instead of finding out what it really is, which is great tool, as far as I mean, what I am right now, compared to what I was a year ago, is entirely different. For the better. And it's just David Susskind 25:52 what is it Diane What is it? Diane Kettering 25:54 What is Scientology? To me? David Susskind 25:55 To you? Yeah, Diane Kettering 25:56 well, it's been a tool, or a tool of which I've used as far as bettering my career. Before I came in, I wasn't really clear on my goals, like what I wanted to do. And I had these goals out here, as far as like being a model and becoming an actress. And I thought, No, I can't do that. And I was in school, I was like, drinking half account of wine tonight and everything. And when I got into Scientology, I found out that I could remove these barriers it was stopping me from from being a model. You know, like, I'm five, five, ever, she can't be a model you only five, five, I discovered a whole market was available. But it was by using Scientology technology, in letting these barriers stop me but moving the barrier out of the way, then I could like, go from here to there and achieve my goal. And now I I do a lot of modeling David Susskind 26:49 How do, you see this as a very complicated double talk? What did you remove? away? What what barrier was removed? And why did Scientology do the removing? What does it do? Diane Kettering 27:01 Okay, what it says David Susskind 27:02 It says you're not five, five, you're five, eight? Diane Kettering 27:04 No, it gives you a specific technology that you can use, like you can take courses that deal with areas that maybe you're having trouble with, like I just finished a course called the performing artists seminar, which deals with David Susskind 27:17 How much did you pay for that course Diane Kettering 27:18 That course was $35 per seminar, and each seminar was three and a half to four hours. So and that was 10 seminars. David Susskind 27:26 So you paid $350, Diane Kettering 27:29 Right, plus and then I had counseling available. If I needed something during the week, I could always come in. Now that course specifically showed me how to take my career from where it was at that point and really examine, first of all, where I was in the career and not no misunderstanding about Well, I really am more successful than I am. But start from that point, and discover the goal. And then write down all the things I needed to get to that goal, and completely keep going through those things, until the goal started becoming a real thing. Now, they absolutely taught me everything I needed to do to do that. You know, and as I finished the courses, I realized, in a period of maybe 10 weeks, my income had perfectly doubled. As far as a model. I was like, promoting myself more and learning that specific type thing. Now that's just an example of one course in one area. Now, I also like there's courses available in family and marriage and things like that David Susskind 28:32 Did you take that course, Diane Kettering 28:33 I've done some work in relationships, right David Susskind 28:37 was that $350 For 10 seminars? Diane Kettering 28:39 No a lot of things I have learned in relationships have been almost no cost at all, because I've been dealing that the center that I go to, has been counseling me and helping me in that area with tremendous gains. I have now a relationship. I mean, before I had made me like, Well, I was divorced. I that marriage just was absolutely out. And I've discovered in the counseling that I got that to take responsibility for my relationship and really examine it and look at it closely every day was the thing that builds a good solid relationship where you can think of a family and children and really live your life in a happy manner instead of always being hassled by it David Susskind 29:24 Are you in a relationship now with a man. Diane Kettering 29:26 Yes. David Susskind 29:26 Are you married to him? Diane Kettering 29:27 Not yet. But it's a very solid relationship. David Susskind 29:32 And you lay that at the doorstep of Scientology. Diane Kettering 29:35 Definitely. David Susskind 29:36 We'll be back after this. One minute pause. |
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INTERVIEW RESUMES:
David Susskind 30:17 This is your program. And I want you to feel that you've made the statement on behalf of your group, Hare Krishna, what do you want to say? Rabindra Swaroop Das 30:26 Oh, I have a lot to say. The first thing I would like to say about the Krishna consciousness movement is that we're not a cult. It's not a made up religion. It's not a new religion, it's very, very old, it's 5000 years old. And the purpose, what we're doing, when you see a person dressed like this, you think it's just something weird, but it actually has a purpose. Because we are trying to create a state of spiritual consciousness. And since we have material bodies, although we're not these bodies, we're spirit soul. The bodies are useful for that purpose. So the explain just a little bit just a moment about the philosophy, the Krishna consciousness, and you'll see actually, that our philosophy is not so much different from Christianity, or Judaism, or anything that you're familiar with the ideas that you and I, although we're different in so many ways, were both of us tiny, spiritual sparks of God. And as such, we're eternal and full of knowledge and full of bliss. But because we've become alienated from God, and come to this material world, we forgotten our original nature. And the business of a human being is to renovate his original state of consciousness, which we call Krishna consciousness, that consciousness that I am the servant of God. And so our process, I call it brainwashing. I've got bigger by brainwashing, I mean, to clean the dirty things out of the mind, that the original pure consciousness of the living entity is now covered by layers of dirt and dust and debris, like lust in greed and anger. So our process is the process of cleansing the dirty things out of the heart out of the mind. And that's a good thing. If there's some dirty place and somebody comes in cleans it. That's what it's for. It's a laudable thing that should be praised. And so we've seen that people who take to the process of Krishna consciousness, are able to live on a level of purity, and give up so many sinful activities. David Susskind 32:34 You don't smoke, you don't drink. You don't have sex outside of marriage Rabindra Swaroop Das 32:38 just like good Baptists. David Susskind 32:40 And within marriage, you have sex only for procreation Rabindra Swaroop Das 32:43 of children David Susskind 32:43 never for pleasure. Rabindra Swaroop Das 32:44 Pleasure may be that when there's procreation, but not just it's not a recreational matter, but you don't David Susskind 32:49 but you don't drink tea or coffee. Rabindra Swaroop Das 32:51 No, David Susskind 32:52 you don't eat eggs or meat? What do you do? Rabindra Swaroop Das 32:57 That's when they get they think there's nothing left in this world but sinful activities. Now, there's plenty to do. What we do is we spend our time in productive way of life. You're going to say what we do for fun, I suppose. I mean, you know, as eating goes on, we eat we eat very nice. You think that because we don't eat meat? We don't don't eat nice fees, when we are on this show. And 1971. David Susskind 33:21 You gave me some of that food Rabindra Swaroop Das 33:23 and you said, No, you said you say you don't remember you said, My God, that food is good. I remember it. Well off the year. He said David Susskind 33:32 it was some nuts, dates mixed together with some something on it. Look, it was hard to eat, Rabindra Swaroop Das 33:39 but you liked it. David Susskind 33:41 I was surprised that I survived. Rabindra Swaroop Das 33:43 You said it was good. David Susskind 33:44 It wasn't so bad. Rabindra Swaroop Das 33:46 Okay, I think that's a good enough. Gadadhar Pandit Das 33:47 Just another instance of culture shock. David Susskind 33:50 Well, I guess what I want to ask you is this? Rabindra Swaroop Das 33:53 What do you really want to know? David Susskind 33:54 I mean, well, I want to know, Are you revolting against some parental experience against something that happened in your relationship with your parents, Rabindra Swaroop Das 34:06 not my parents in a very good relationship. And I think I'm doing this in some way to fulfill what my parents wanted me. Of course, they may not understand entirely David Susskind 34:15 your dad's in the a Rabindra Swaroop Das 34:17 retired Army officer, right? David Susskind 34:18 A career man Rabindra Swaroop Das 34:19 career, man, David Susskind 34:19 is this what he wanted for you? Rabindra Swaroop Das 34:22 Yes, it is what he wanted for me, although he may not exactly be able to accept the form. When I joined the Krishna Consciousness Movement, and my wife with me and my two children, we all joined together, they were shocked. And I think it took about two years for them to recover. And now we have a wonderful relationship. And although they're not Krishna devotees, they are very, very supportive. I think what really did it is that they saw how wonderfully my children are turning out. That was the thing they're most worried about, of course, their grandchildren and they see that turning out to be really Nice people and very well behaved and well brought up I think that was the that was the thing. David Susskind 35:07 Why did this garb? Why the shaved heads? Gadadhar Pandit Das 35:10 This is traditional. What Why do Catholic priests wear collars? Or what why do people of the Jewish persuasion wear a yarmulke is it's to identify that they are deeply religious, that they want to dedicate their life to God. This is a way of adorning the body as a temple of God, to indicate to some passers by that if he has a question about Krishna, that he can come and ask me, just as a badge would indicate that a policeman is someone you could go to for helping legal affairs or Rabindra Swaroop Das 35:38 when actually when I run down the street, the little children's, and sometimes they'll run after me and they'll be yelling, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, and just by my walking down the street, I've got them to chant God's names. That's very effective. David Susskind 35:52 Scientologists, what do you want to talk about Artie Maren 35:55 Well, I think an extension of what they were saying there are all these these positive things that groups like Scientology, like Krishna, and many others are doing for their members. We have a situation with Diane, who was almost alcoholic, if not an alcoholic, students who are failing in college who could become involved in Scientology, he returned to college and start doing very well. Applying the study technology that Hubbard has developed. People like myself, who who couldn't even communicate. years ago, 16 years ago, when I first came in David Susskind 36:27 I couldn't believe you never communicate. Very true. Slick talker, Artie Maren 36:31 I couldn't even look at a person, nevermind, talk to them. And within two weeks, applying the various communication technologies, I was able to realize that what communication was all about, and its purpose, and so on and so forth. And it completely changed my life. Diane Kettering 36:47 That's one of the first things you learn, I think one of the primary courses is a communications course, where you do learn how to, to say what you think, and communicate with a person directly. And I think that's so great. Like, when you come into the center, that's the first thing you do is this Communications course. And it's like, immediately you get benefit from it immediately. You can take it out and use it in whatever career or walk of life you're in. I know I could really use it in dealing with agents, or my agencies or whatever, that type of thing. David Susskind 37:19 Isn't it a very wealthy religion, Scientology, aren't you in excess of $50 million in assets? And buildings, and Artie Maren 37:27 we have never been accused of being poor. David Susskind 37:29 Don't you have yachts doesn't Hubbard operate off a yacht. He did. Artie Maren 37:35 Never. We the church owned a converted cattle ferry, which by the time it got to the New York Times, it was a yacht, I spent two months on it. And it was not a pleasure cruise, I can assure you, there is a spiritual rigor David Susskind 37:48 Was that used for fairing cattle? Artie Maren 37:50 Originally David Susskind 37:51 no, when Hubbard and your leader Artie Maren 37:55 it was just, it was converted from the cattle ferry David Susskind 37:57 to what, Artie Maren 37:58 to the the retreat that we had at that time, for which there were spiritual exercises, and so on and so forth. It was nothing fancy. And even if it was, David, I think that's an important point, we are bringing about a tremendous positive change in people's attitudes towards living their happiness, their their integrity, their honesty, as human beings. And I don't see why an individual shouldn't be comfortable with that, why there shouldn't be an exchange, of course, that she took, well, we made myself, the first course I took was a communications course that changed my life was $35, I would have paid 3500, to have what I got out of that course. And I think it's the same for other Scientologists. Money is a very relative relative thing, Rabindra Swaroop Das 38:46 let me say something about the subject of money, since it always comes up. We collect money in the airports, and so on. The point is that that money, there's a Sanskrit word for money is Lakshmi. And Lakshmi means the goddess of fortune. And the goddess of fortune is the wife of God Vishnu. So that money actually belongs to God. So that the idea is that we don't reject the material world or its wealth. Because it's, it's God's, we not but neither do I take it and use it for myself, because then I'm a thief. I'm taking it belongs to somebody else. So we take what belongs to God, and we use it in God's service. And that's the point. So you can't say that because someone is his rich or is poor, that he's not spiritual. If you're poor, and you use what money you have in the service of God, if you're rich, you use what money you have in the service of God. In either case, it's the same rich or poor. But if I take what if I have a lot of money, and I use it for my own selfish purposes, as a thief, then I'm in trouble because thiefs get punished and that's the law of God. Artie Maren 39:52 And I think also we're trying to develop people to start thinking for themselves as individuals, not as robots he brought up a good point. Before about brainwashing, Scientology's basic technology is based upon the idea that man is walking around in a state of semi consciousness and in some cases, almost unconscious, that they're not aware of what's happening in their surroundings, that they are reacting to life instead of CO acting with it. And these are all forms of sort of hypnosis. And what we're involved in is returning to that individual, his self determinism, his understanding his awareness of what's happening in his surroundings, and helping them to become more causative over his life, and therefore happier and more ethical and more honest. And so on Rabindra Swaroop Das 40:36 you had some people on your program David Susskind 40:38 and this is being done at a preset schedule of fees, correct. I mean, a lot of millions are changing hands here. Well, if her costs and communications and you're all Artie Maren 40:49 Over the world a tremendous expansion of Scientology, and therefore no doubt monies? Yes, David Susskind 40:54 how many American members of Scientology Artie Maren 40:56 1976, there was about 3.2 million. That is the general membership active membership was about 500,000 people who have involved in the courses to some greater or lesser extent, David Susskind 41:09 can we come right back to this point, after this pause. |
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INTERVIEW CONCLUDES:
David Susskind 41:39 Look, a lot of people were worried, troubled by your activity. They represent a threat, they think, to the established order. They represent the parents of falling away by their children from the relationship a lot of the children and parents no longer have the traditional relationships they have Rabindra Swaroop Das 41:58 Of course, I don't have that problem. I don't have David Susskind 42:00 No you don't Gadadhar Pandit Das 42:00 neither do I Diane Kettering 42:01 neither do I Artie Maren 42:02 But I did before Scientology. completely estranged my parents prior to Scientology, and the multitude of Scientologists, some already have good relationships that become better, we stress a family situation very much because it is family and there is a tremendous affinity as they should be. But in what happens somehow, what is pressed upon us by by people, for reasons best known to themselves, are these various charges of alienation, and so on and so forth, which are quite the opposite. My statement to parents and people who are interested is to come and see for yourself, visit a Krishna center, visit a Scientology center meet with these people speak to them, not the disparaged, and the in the people filled with hate who say I was a member. And they did this to me. And they did that to me and so on and so forth. Go down there and speak with with with not only the staff, but the people who come daily or once a month or what have you. Gadadhar Pandit Das 43:00 Exactly Artie Maren 43:01 Make your own mind up. Gadadhar Pandit Das 43:02 We have instances now of people writing books, who have never visited our temple, and they purport to be experts on cults and different fourth forms of faith group that they David Susskind 43:11 have parents visited your temple. Gadadhar Pandit Das 43:13 Yes, mine, and I visit my parents regularly almost every month. David Susskind 43:16 Are they pleased and adjusted to your Gadadhar Pandit Das 43:18 very much so they appreciate what I'm doing within Krishna consciousness, which is managing our food distribution centers in Africa and Asia. They feel that that's just as laudable a welfare project as any other established religion. But more than that, they can see a personal change in my life, that I'm more compassionate, that I'm less self centered. Diane Kettering 43:37 That exact thing happened to me, my parents are from South Dakota. And I was in Scientology about four months before they had a chance to visit me, at which time they saw an incredible change in me, first of all, they visited the center and they saw all these really happy people that were, you know, like open and talking. And they saw that it wasn't any big thing that they maybe thought it was that it was actually a very useful tool and they definitely change their mind about it. After visiting. David Susskind 44:09 Is there any statement you want to make? This is by way of equal time to a program we did with former members of Hare Krishna Rabindra Swaroop Das 44:17 Let me say let me say one thing. You had the these people on a wrote a book called snapping. And in that book, there's a really intriguing statement that that expresses the philosophy behind a lot of this whole deprogramming movement. They said, there we have discovered that contrary to popular opinion, there is nothing human inside a human being. There is only chemistry, biology and machinery. Here are people that are saying that we're turning people into robots, whose philosophy is that you already are a robot. And there's something really wrong and that that whole movement is permeated by this philosophy that is totally materialistic. And if you carry it out all the way completely nailed ballistic. And I think that's the real threat. The Krishna consciousness movement is preaching a spiritual philosophy, that the human being is something more than just dead matter and dead machinery. And that's our real value. And if we can put this proposition across the American people that you are something more than just your body, you're a spiritual, you're part and God, then I think we really will have accomplished something. And that's what we're trying to do. David Susskind 45:25 Are you making progress? Are you making progress? Rabindra Swaroop Das 45:28 Oh, yes, we're making a great deal of progress. I think our movement is growing very steadily and very nicely and know that we have not been adversely affected. There's been all this propaganda campaign that Ben de programmings, but our book distribution keeps increasing every year, and people keep coming and joining. So on the grassroots level where we're effective, everything is going on pretty nicely. Gadadhar Pandit Das 45:49 And we're expanding two to three times as fast as we did when our spiritual master was initially alive when he came to this country. Now we're expanding even more readily David Susskind 45:59 30 seconds, Artie Maren 46:00 all right, I would say the same thing, especially since that it is not what appears in the press, it is mainly is the activities, are they as a technology workable is the application of the philosophy bring about the result. And that is the only reason that we expand and I think Krishna is in many other groups that what people are seeking they're receiving, and we will grow and expand to the degree that we do that, regardless of what is said lies vilification or anything else. David Susskind 46:28 I hope you think that you've had an equal opportunity you say your piece, and thank you for coming. Thank you. We'll be back. |
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David Susskind 47:04 That's it for tonight. I hope you found it interesting. Join us again next week at the same time until then, good night. |
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