19841980s TV SHOWS
"VIETNAM: THE NIGHTMARE NEVER ENDS"
WITH VIETNAM VETERANS JOHN CATTERSON, THOMAS LECKINGER, THOMAS BRINSON, LAWRENCE SMITH
WITH VIETNAM VETERANS JOHN CATTERSON, THOMAS LECKINGER, THOMAS BRINSON, LAWRENCE SMITH
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| 00:59:24 1.17 |
"VIETNAM: THE NIGHTMARE NEVER ENDS" - POST VIETNAM BATTLE STRESS - "SHELL SHOCK" WAR VETS TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES
WITH VIETNAM VETERANS JOHN CATTERSON, THOMAS LECKINGER, THOMAS BRINSON, LAWRENCE SMITH - TALK ABOUT HOW THE YOUTH OF AMERICA, THEIR CONTEMPORARIES RIDICULED THEM AND DISGRACED THEM ' VIETNAM VETERANS OF AMERICA" BLACK VETERANS FOR SOCIAL INJUSTICE (HF-YTV, JANUARY 2019) SUSSKIND INTRODUCES SHOW TOPIC: David Susskind 0:00 Good evening, I'm David Susskind. And the Vietnam ceasefire was signed in January 1973. But for many Vietnam veterans, the war goes on and on and on. They feel bitter, betrayed and forgotten. And the simple sound of a car backfiring makes them relive their worst nightmares. Tonight veterans talk about Vietnam and how it affects their lives today. And it's a very important show because it has to do with you and your children. And today and tomorrow, we will begin after this pause. |
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SUSSKIND INTRODUCES GUESTS:
David Susskind For many veterans of the Vietnam War coming back home was almost as dramatic as the war itself. They were reviled and ridiculed and more often simply ignored, sadly ignored. My guest tonight, Vietnam veterans and they're here to discuss their experiences then, and today. Please meet them now. First, John Catterson joined the Marines in 1965. And after six months in battle in Vietnam, he was sent home with two bullet wounds. He is an attorney and he is chairman of the New York State Council of the Vietnam Veterans of America. Thomas Brinson was an Army ROTC Reserve Officer Training Corps graduate, and he served as an officer in Vietnam from April 67 to April 68. He now works as a counselor for alcoholics. Thomas Leckinger joined the army early in 1969 and was wounded twice. After he was sent back to the States. He deserted to Canada for a month and a half, before turning himself in. He is a lawyer, and he is national secretary and General Counsel for the Vietnam Veterans of America. And finally, Lawrence Smith served with the Marines for eight and a half months in Vietnam in 1966. He was wounded twice, and he lost his right leg. He is unemployed, and he is co founder and vice president of a group called black veterans for social justice. I just want to establish that we have never met before. I don't know you from previous experience or anything us simply all strangers. And what you have in common is that you're all Vietnam veterans. A lot of the men from Vietnam came home, not to peace, but to ridicule and nervous breakdowns, drug problems, alcoholism, all kinds of problems. Did you have any problem when you came home? Lawrence Smith Yes I did. People self when I came back home was very naive towards me. David Susskind They were naive Lawrence Smith very naive towards me. You know? Firstly, they will say that we're women and children kill us that we basically murderers. We first went over one over 66 At the beginning of the Vietnam War. And the idea that things were differently compared to the guys who came in afterwards. David Susskind Why did you go? Lawrence Smith Well, we were well, we were sent over there. They were told that the communist aggression in South Vietnam from the north for people, South Vietnam, under communist attack. This is the knowledge that we received when we got there, you know, at first it was really nothing basically happening in Vietnam. You know, there was search and destroy mission, at least for me, until several months later than we went out. Yes the marines. And then we went out for search and destroy missions. David Susskind what's a search and destroy mission? Lawrence Smith Well, we went into the villages looking for the enemy looking for the weapons. So you know, whoever's there, we will David Susskind Now hold it a minute Larry. How John Catterson How do you know the enemy from the non enemy, they were all vietnamese John Catterson That was very difficult to you didn't most of the time, you couldn't recognize an enemy you recognize. Someone with a weapon is being an enemy, usually. But there was a time of day there was a curfew from eight, eight at night till six in the morning. And if you want a night ambush shore patrol, anybody that moved, was considered an enemy. And in fact, I was on an ambush that killed a South Vietnamese popular force troop who happened to be hunting pigeons with a slingshot because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and wasn't wearing the red kerchief they're supposed to wear. So the question how do you tell the enemy couldn't tell the enemy the one Oh, battle lines and the one who clearly defined enemy David Susskind Do you agree? Thomas Leckinger Well, that was I guess my word was a little bit more sanitized than that because I was. I didn't have much contact with the villagers or the civilian populace while I was their most of my time was spent up in the jungles David Susskind in the jungle. Thomas Leckinger Clearly anybody that I came across was considered enemy period. No ifs, no ands no buts David Susskind You were an infantry man Thomas Leckinger yeah Thomas Brinson I was in an urban area in Qui Nho'n on the coastline and the enemy was very amorphous, as likely to be a 12 year old girl son, as More likely, in fact, to be a a woman in black pajamas. As a man, it was an unseen enemy. It was an enemy of sniping have David Susskind Did you volunteer or were you drafted? Thomas Brinson Well, I went through ROTC came up in the early 60s, really, the Kennedy years and I was originally from the south and southerners go to war, you know, we are still fighting the civil war in many areas. And I knew I was going to go into the military and the Vietnam was a war of my generation and yes, I volunteered because I didn't particularly like it but you know, it wasn't a good nice clean war like David maybe your war was but it was at war my generation David Susskind A clean war is when you're you're on a ship. Thomas Brinson A clean war is when you're a politician. David Susskind Is that what you think? John Catterson I suppose that's one way of looking at I mean, I don't know that there are any clean wars today. I don't know that any war is so clean as to be to me maybe that's just the wrong word clean it's Lawrence Smith very devastating. I mean, the type of war that'll be fought over there was nothing compared to war that you fought in World War Two was more David Susskind Were you scared Lawrence Smith all time. Not that I was scared, I was scared to death. I mean, there's sometimes we in firefights and then when you move your bowels and peed on yourself, I mean, fighting was tremendous. And to see your buddy have his head blown off or arm missing or shot to the head, you know, these type of things. No they do bother you. And like when we first got there to say, the people in black pajamas worked there calm, but come to find out that was their native dress. Yeah. And we were shooting people innocent people, because we were told, David Susskind Have you killed a man Lawrence Smith oh, yes, I have David Susskind Have you seen them die in front of you Lawrence Smith Yes I have seen them die David Susskind What is that like. when that happens Lawrence Smith Oh, I can't explain nothing like that. I mean, no, no, I can't not really I mean, all in all I was trying to do to survive. And that made Thomas Leckinger That's the point did you really think about it at the time and I can't remember ever thinking about that while I was there in the you know, the hand you a machine gun, they say, you know, go get him he's gonna try to get you in. He's trying to get you and you're trying to get him in. Thomas Brinson He's got the black hat you've got the white Thomas Leckinger I Killed a man. That just never registered John Catterson I think I thought about it afterwards. I thought about all the time years since then, I've taken a life that Thomas Brinson At a poiNt here though, David, David Susskind Wait a minute I wanted to stay on this point a minute when you thought about it afterwards how much afterwards John Catterson I would say a couple of years at least David Susskind you mean all the men that you shot how many people do you think you killed John Catterson three i that I'm absolutely certain I was solely responsible for killing yes three that I actually cited down on and pull the trigger in. Saw someone fall David Susskind you? Thomas Brinson none David Susskind and you? Lawrence Smith Oh I can't I wouldn't dare count because we very good combat areas, you know, operations on Indiana, Utah, Golden Fleece Montgomery, I can name quite one of these operations that we went on but as we call the search and destroy missions, I was over 15 So destroyed mission David Susskind A search and destroy mission means what? Lawrence Smith In other words we're gonna be going into the villages, we're searching for the enemy, and we to destroy the weapons, weapons or destroy the enemy David Susskind would that be women and children Lawrence Smith women and children and David Susskind why would you kill women and children? Lawrence Smith we're not killing women and children. When you in a firefight, you don't have time to see who's a woman or a child, you know that a man is shooting at you. And you have only one thing in your mind is to shoot back to stay alive, to make the communication to the other men on the line to tell what's what, where to go right or left and to well, David Susskind we now know that we the United States of America, and our troops. Lawrence Smith Yes. David Susskind Our Marines and our soldiers would come into a village. Lawrence Smith Yes. David Susskind And it's called My Lai Massacre. Did you ever have anything like that? Where you just went from 10 Hut, hut and shot whatever moved Lawrence Smith no, no, no, we wasn't doing anything like that. I gotta say that the war was very new to us. When we were there. You know, David Susskind You were there four years Lawrence Smith No, I was in the Marine Corps for four years total a year in our naval hospital with that to five years. I spent eight and a half months in Vietnam was in Chu Lai, Phu bai and Da Nang David Susskind How many times were you wounded? Lawrence Smith I was wounded twice I was wounded in September and wounded in October 1st time I seen their conda threw the grenade at me, I see him and when he threw it, we were at the time running and glasses, you know, which I got shrap metal on my shoulders, and my arm and from the concussion itself and I was knocked out and woke up. You know, you guys are walking me to you know, give me tag on for the Red Cross and send me to the chopper to go back to be made to be treated for wounds. David Susskind How long are you in a chopper before you landed a hospital? Lawrence Smith Oh about 15 minutes. doesn't take that long a day. This is not a very heavy firefight they'll come in and pick you up immediately but if it's a heavy firefight you go we wait till it clears David Susskind Were you given painkillers how is it Lawrence Smith they give you well as to take the time they gave us a little set off little things they shot until you was no painkiller. I mean when I looked down at my foot, she didn't halfway hanging off you know no way in the world I can think of any pain killers you I'm just looking at my foot and screaming and yelling I mean I was in shock and to look at all the guys that were dead around me you know because when we got caught we caught an ambush and our men were looking upon the hill and seen it and I think they can do is put the gear on and come off the hill and you know try to intercept with an ambush David Susskind what kind of gear on you're using army Lawrence Smith well yes well well the weapons you know ammunition and to come off the you know the scene and you know, setting up the base of fire because we got caught pretty good in the ambush and really nothing much they can do. David Susskind How many men were killed Lawrence Smith all the guys made me about 35 36. I was one of five to live. David Susskind You were. wait a minute. you were Lawrence Smith I was caught in an ambush. I was one to shoot it came out alive David Susskind 41 men. Lawrence Smith Yes, that's right David Susskind ambush and five lived and 36 died Lawrence Smith That's correct John Catterson And about what 30 seconds. Lawrence Smith Oh, well, to me seemed like forever. I mean, you being fired on I had the radio and they were trying to take the radio off my back as they are taking the radios off my back the guy was shot and he fell on top of me in a way that kind of saved me with them spotting me again. And when I finally got the man off my back and start crawling to the rice paddies. Then he spotted me again and start firing again. And what you know, I screaming and then thought I was dead and they stop by the time to men from the hill came down and they were picking up the wounded you know, fighting and fighting was going off on ahead. By that time they were picking me up to put me on a chopper and doing that another man was shot. So you know fell out the punch that took me in and put me back on the choppers is going to v med David Susskind I'm curious in the 41 men ambushed that day? Yes. How many were black? Lawrence Smith Quite a few. Vietnam was quite a few black men. That was another type of thing like to get into for blacks. David Susskind We will but I'm curious about the 41 men 36 of them died. That's how many of those 41 do you guess were black or white Lawrence Smith about half David Susskind half and half Lawrence Smith We also had not only black. Hispanics. They were with us too David Susskind That's the time you got to your leg Lawrence Smith was a second time second time was with my leg. the first time with my shoulder, we will on operation when the Vietnamese were first voting, there will be we're protecting the road and a bridge so that people can cross it and go to vote. David Susskind They are voting in the middle of a war Lawrence Smith this is the first election John Catterson Constituent Assembly. Thomas Leckinger I suspect that that was that was pretty typical. I had about maybe a third to half in my platoon that were black David Susskind do think was a democracy which nobody knew of Lawrence Smith No, I didn't see anything. Oh, he has a democracy. All I see David Susskind I mean what were they voting about? Lawrence Smith I haven't the slightest idea to tell you the truth. stay to protect myself and to get home in one piece. David Susskind Lyndon Johnson wanted an election so we didn't have. Did it feel like a democracy to you guys. Thomas Brinson It was a well, I mean, there was was democracy was David Susskind Was that Marshall key. John Catterson That time it was it was David Susskind Do you think he was a president or a dictator. What do you what do you John Catterson A military dictator military clearly he was he was a I think he was a general in the Airforce and he walked around in a fairly fancy flight suit most of the time and Thomas Brinson designer flight suit David Susskind Designer flight suit. We have to look good when you're looking at to Switzerland. You can't just go to a secret account there. And Marshall key John Catterson but they did have a Constituent Assembly election. That's that's exactly the time I got hit to we set in and secured a village for David Susskind your were protecting the voters in the same election. John Catterson Actually we were out on a mission we were out on an operation, as we called it, then part of Operation prairie up in the northern areas in the northern provinces. And on the day of their election. We were not supposed to operate. We just set up around the village as a protective force. But we had kind of like a day off. You were in in a hostile area. But you were in a rear area. You weren't out marching through the woods, as you'd say just in a rear David Susskind Howcdid you get wounded. John Catterson It was a day after that. We moved out the next day and without having stayed back in our positions. The VC moved in or the the NBA since they were around us. David Susskind How did you get wounded. John Catterson I was a radio operator as Larry was I was a basic grunt for six months. And then the radio man was wounded and they handed me the radio. And you never wanted to be different. You never wanted to carry a pistol or to have a radio that identified you as being someone different. They let almost an entire battalion go by before they hit us. And I was we were operating with tanks in a very hostile northern area. I still believe we were inside the DMZ. When we were hit. We were that close to the area where we were not supposed to operate. I'm relatively sure we went there. Thomas Brinson Well, we did go on and off now. We were David Susskind We're getting too technical. I see no, I think demilitarized zones and all that you were where you shouldn't be John Catterson I think we were Yes. Based on the maps I saw and I was following around that officer that we even an officer we under attack or we just know we were walking we were walking to a point where we were going to set up a blocking force around the village and another battalion of army of the Vietnamese Army was going to sweep the village. We would be there to catch what was coming out right at us had recently changed and I was on the phone I was on my radio talking to a fellow in a tank. The area was hostile the tank would do what we called recon by fire. As he drove through the bushes, he would fire at random into into the bushes, because everything was hostile up there. There were uniformed North Vietnamese troops in that area. There was a lot of shooting going on. Because of that the troops on the flanks would also be shooting into the bush. I was talking to the guy in the tank and there was all the shooting going on. And the guy in the tank said to me, who's doing all the shooting, and at that moment, it occurred to me that he was I looked off to my side and there were three people standing in the bush about 150 yards away, shooting at they had rifles, at their hips and not at their shoulders. And it was almost like a John Wayne movie bullet started to land in the dirt all around me. But let's when zipping past my face. The fellow with me who was a platoon sergeant, we didn't have any officers, most of our officers early casualties. It was a senior enlisted man who was leading a platoon, he fell down. I bent over to pick him up and I was hitting the leg and I fell down. I got up to get him to try and move him off. And I was hit again and I at that point, I decided to stay down. And we crawled into what was then a, I think a ditch six inches deep. That felt like it was 30 feet deep because I could just like jello mold into that. And the tank came back and the battalion moved up fortunately and secured the area and within 25 minutes I was on a helicopter to a hospital. What we had done was trapped about four NDA scouts in the area. And they were there David Susskind Where were you hit? John Catterson in the leg. David Susskind Okay, we'll be right back. |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
David Susskind Okay, is your experience any different? Thomas Leckinger Not Really. David Susskind You've been wounded. Thomas Leckinger I was wounded twice. The first time was in an ambush. was late that afternoon, which is probably the worst time in the world to get ambushed. We were just trying to set up for the night David Susskind Why is the worst time Thomas Leckinger because then you're stuck in it for the middle of the night. You don't have time to set up your defenses and get squared away for the before being a defensive position before dark goes and everybody's scattered all over the place. And we walked into a horseshoe shaped ambush. And I got shot. I was machine gunner. I was in the tail platoon actually it was a company size operation. And when the people in the front got blown away they brought up the machine guns gathered all the guys in the machine guns and basically went up and just spray the area and as we were doing that, that's when I got hit and I got shot in the arm. It's gonna Larry mentioned if you had a hot Elzy it took quite a while to get a metal that kind of stuff. I got hit about 530 in the afternoon. I never get out to about three in the morning. Because they were shooting down the meta vaxes We were given the people out the helicopters, the medical evacuation helicopters, they would be shooting those down. So I got out of there. I spent about a month in the hospital and went back to the field. This was in Cambodia. By the way. I was part of the Cambodian invasion. Went back to the field finished the David Susskind Did we invade Cambodia. We weren't supposed invade. What's this? What is the section we swore Mr. Nixon somebody said we're not in there. Thomas Leckinger Cambodia and Laos both much before we publicly acknowledged. David Susskind You were there Thomas Leckinger Oh, yeah, I wasn't. But there was military Thomas Brinson There was military involvements there David Susskind How do you know that? Thomas Leckinger Because I've talked to people since then. I've talked to a lot of people. Thomas Brinson I was talking to David I was talking to about the couple of weeks ago who said that it was incredibly difficult because when they were on excursions into Cambodia, they had to give their coordinates and plus 10. David Susskind What's a coordinate Thomas Brinson coordinate is a location on the map. And when they would call in fire support either artillery fire support or airstrikes, they would have to give their coordinates. It's an eight digit number eight digit six digits, I don't know. However many numbers there is six, six digit have to locate and add 10, because the one that they gave was inside Vietnam, and they had to actually add 10 to put it on the real location in Cambodia, but they would never announce that location. NBA Russians, Chinese, whoever, village, Village Voice, you know, Jane Fonda who would would would pick it up and publicize it. And there was so many I mean, it was an incredible error prone war to begin with. And when you add that kind of complication on it, friendly fire death by friendly fire David Susskind Can you definefear, because I was in a war and other kind of war and I only have known fear. And but in this Vietnam War Thomas Leckinger was, well how would you describe it? Personally, it was it was David Susskind Did you know, fear often. Thomas Leckinger It was remarkable. You know, they really do a nice job on you in training. I mean, they basically train you in it and it's a big game and it's a big war game and you go over there and it's just an extension of basically it. Until somebody gets hurt. Yeah. And that was several months I was in country several months before anybody in my platoon got hurt. And then it was just a minor wound and you start thinking about a little bit, and then I got hit. And boy, your 19 year old sense of immortality just right out the window. David Susskind Yeah, you were 19. Thomas Leckinger Yeah. And, you know, that's it. When I came back, I was a basket case. Lawrence Smith I was considered pretty old when I went to Vietnam and 21 Yeah, I was so bad. David Susskind You know that in World War Two, the average age of the man who knew combat 26 Marine, Army Navy, was 26. And the average age, the average age of the eight year Vietnam War, it was eight years long, you know, from 65, march 65. To January of 80 73. Thomas Brinson That's when you were there on actual direct combat role David Susskind Combat role Thomas Leckinger first American was killed in 1946. The first real combat death was 1046. Dewey was an OSS officer. David Susskind Yeah But he was an advisor. Thomas Leckinger Exactly. We had advisors killed. 1959. So yeah, but in terms of actual combat ground troops with the marines David Susskind And they left in January of 73 Yeah. All right now. Fear. Thomas Leckinger Again, you know, David Susskind one of the fact that world war 2 the average period of combat for the man who served actual confrontational life and death, was about six weeks of his military career. He was in combat for six weeks. And the average period of confrontational Life and Death combat for Vietnam was one year 12 months, because you're always Thomas Leckinger there instead certain respects you can't compare him you know, in certain respects you can for various aspects of war bullet as a bullet as bullet you'll die just as dead in World War Two wish it would have been Vietnam. Six weeks in World War Two, given the type of war that conventional war with the front's in the lines and being able to go to a reverse is a whole lot different than the war we fought. We fought a guerrilla war. These guys were in the villages, they didn't know whether the 12 year old kid was was an enemy, or the 45 year old guy, or the 80 year old guy had a grenade under his belt. And when I was everybody was an enemy. It was up in the jungle, but it was constant was 24 hours a day, we had firefights at midnight, we had firefighting six in the morning, and three in the afternoon, it didn't matter. David Susskind Fire fights are people shooting at you. Machine guns and John Catterson one person or 100 people, you know, and that's the kind of war it was, it could be two snipers that came down. And the amount of ordnance that we threw at I in my own experience of having been pinned down by a sniper who would pop up every half an hour and take a few shots, and then we'd call in a jet or maybe guns 100 grams up the ordinary way. After two days of this pop, pop, pop every hour, so we got up one morning, and they told us we were going to assault the tree line. And this guy was just popping away at us every hour, we got up. And it was almost like in boot camp. They teach you to do this, and you never think it'll work in combat. But we did it. We just stormed this tree line across David Susskind a tree pad you have to define I know what you John Catterson were in a rice paddy area. It's an open field, come into a village there is an actual line of trees that surround the village. And they were inside this village. If we were outside this village, and we were assaulting this tree line, we were maybe 120 people in a line across a field running to this tree line firing and screaming just because that's what you you were trying to scare who was ever in there. In addition to keep yourself pumped up to keep moving and you're waiting for a shot, you're waiting for somebody to fall and you just keep moving. We swept 50 yards into the treeline. And I was we were grouping around waiting to go into the village there was some huts there and we were sort of bunching up trying to figure out how we were gonna approach this. And I heard a pop pop pop and I looked behind me and there was our Sniper firing in the direction in which we had come. He didn't know or didn't care that we'd move by his job was to shoot in this direction. We'd move by him he popped up again and he fired the other way. And you know, it was he was we finally David Susskind a sniper was on a John Catterson one man in a hole about 20 feet deep with a ladder. A sock of rice and not very much else. A whole lot of ammunition and a little Thomas Leckinger I just came back and one of the I was on a delegation went to Vietnam and one of the things we did over there was go up to place called Cu Chi which was probably one of the more famous telecom tunnel complexes in Vietnam. They the Vietnamese started building this in 1946 to fight the French. By the time the Americans came in 66 they had over 270 kilometers of tunnels built. They had meeting rooms they had concrete bunkers comparable and it's real clear we went through the David Susskind like a subway system in an American city Thomas Leckinger we went through these last two weeks ago, I went through these tunnel complexes and it's real clear that one guy with access to the tunnel system could turn out a whole company, there was at least 15 or 20 Firing courts ranging over a 500 meter radius. And he could just pop up take around town come up David Susskind this ran on the ground but there were places where they could Thomas Leckinger fire in court they didn't hold underneath the bush or somewhere this guy could stand up, pop around off, go back down, go through the tunnels and come up 50 yards away come up behind you. One guy could literally tied on the whole company for days. David Susskind So this super power America, United States of America was fighting and unseen invisible enemy. Thomas Leckinger Virtually, I don't know, you know, up north again, these guys went up against NVA with tanks and stuff like that there was a certain amount of conventionality to their war up their mind was strictly growth. David Susskind So you do understand how the Russians, the other superpower by day, are pinned down in Afghanistan and the superpower Russia Soviet Union can't find the enemy Thomas Leckinger real irony right now. You got Vietnam, having gone into Kampuchea basically, after Pol Pots, people pulled lots people are up on the side of the mountains in northern Kampuchea, fighting the Vietnamese and they're fighting a guerrilla war against the Vietnamese. And I'll find themselves in fighting conventional war against guerrilla troops. And it's a real ironic situation. It's an uncomfortable situation for them to be in I guess. David Susskind Did you volunteer? Thomas Leckinger Oh yes David Susskind did you volunteer? John Catterson Yes. David Susskind Did you? Thomas Leckinger Yes I did David Susskind Why did you do that? John Catterson in 1965 you fought for your country Thomas Leckinger paying your price. Carrying your burden, Yeah. David Susskind Your southern you had to go southern because you were at college Thomas Brinson I'm southern. Kennedy. Well, I chose to go on ROTC David Susskind And ROTC means that you take military time during your four year college Thomas Brinson I took it during my 4 years of college David Susskind with the agreement that you will serve in the army for two years when you graduate. Thomas Brinson I graduated as an officer I then went to basic training for six weeks and to my MOS, my specialty training for eight weeks and by act of Congress then entitled me to lead a platoon of 45 men David Susskind so you volunteered where you had to go Thomas Brinson Vietnam was my first duty station. Thomas Leckinger I volunteered, you know, I mean, it was just it was expected. I grew up. I never finished high school, upstate New York, Rochester, never finished high school. And you know, you came out of the army. If you didn't go to college, which was very few, maybe 10% of the class of people that I was with, went to college and everybody else just went in the service period. You went to work at Kodak for a little while. And then you went off into service. And it was just expected. I mean, it was just normal. It was like getting David Susskind You volunteer. You entered the regular army for four years Lawrence Smith No I went to the Marine Corps. I did that mostly on our family's tradition. Cousin, he was one of the first five black Marines are going to World War Two of my five Marines. And my father came in several months later. So that was just a tradition of the Marine Corps. In my family David Susskind you were proud to be a Marine. Lawrence Smith Yes, that perticular time David Susskind you went to fight because your country's communist, we're gonna Lawrence Smith No I joined them on the service thing that once I served in the military, try to get the proper education to get the skills that the military taught me. And then when I came out, I could use the skills on the outside, which it was a big force. It was a real big force to me. I mean, that's when I came home seeing the reality of what happened to you know, black veterans when they came home and was very terrible. David Susskind Okay, I don't want to get you home quite. I will finish off that war pretty soon. But we have to pass we'll be right back. |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
David Susskind The war is thought to have been a class war in a sense that people in colleges generally didn't go. Blue color, men went and blacks and minority groups went. Now, though, the Army Defense Department says the actual statistic was about 12.8 of the men who served 2,000,000.9 2,900,000 people served Americans in Vietnam, and 7500 women 2.9 million men and 7500 women. The army says that Marine Corps and everybody says that only 12.8% were blacks, Lawrence Smith that's not true. It's 22% of the population population will go black and hispanics. Also Indian Chinese, you know, other ethnic groups David Susskind that what percentage do you think were black or otherwise? Lawrence Smith 22% Well, black fought in the Vietnam David Susskind Well, that happens to be the statistic that they represent in the national census. But nobody sat down do you think it's so we want Lawrence Smith Well if you look on the fton line, you will see it. You look on the front line you will see the blacks there Thomas Leckinger Take a look at the statistic Yeah, you can say 22% What you really need to look at is how many of those guys were Combat Roll that bush infantry. It's gonna jump up to 30 or 40%. That's David Susskind on the line living and dying Thomas Brinson As their role and function combat as their direct mission David Susskind Did you see many college kids white college kids? Thomas Leckinger I had a couple of lieutenants who were ROTC lieutenants infantry that came. ROTC college for 4 years came through, I would suspect in my platoon of 25 or 26, we may be the entire time I was there. Two or three college graduates, the great some of them had college and had left got bored, got themselves drafted. But the greater majority more high school well, an awful lot of for some reason, I don't know why. But my company wound up in an awful lot of Southerners. A lot of people from Tennessee on south down in there, now southerners are patriotic, the Thomas Brinson I don't know about patriotic again, it's not so much a matter of black white, but it's really class. It's really low economic blue collar. David Susskind Did You see any upper middle class upper Thomas Brinson in your in your career officers? Yeah. And in my platoon, I had to turn 45 men. And I would say that, out of that 45, I had about 10 blacks and probably about eight or nine Hispanic Hispanics. The rest were blue collar I had that I can recall one or two college graduates either out of out of 45. Thomas Leckinger The interesting thing is, they keep quoting a statistic and they try to come down and I don't know what everybody else is experiencing. But I was in late. I was in 1970. And again, up in the jungles and stuff and everybody, you know, try sometimes to classify this as a race thing. Yeah. Where they're not there was none. Absolutely none. When I was there, David Susskind How much drug use was there Lawrence Smith I didn't see none. Because we're too busy fighting. We had no time be high Thomas Leckinger I suspect that that's certainly my experience. John Catterson And you didn't didn't mess with those kinds of substances when your your life depended on everybody else. I mean, there was there was a significant amount of beer when you were in a rear area. And you could go out you got a beer ration two beers, they were warm. You could compile that David Susskind How was the food, John Catterson but for the most part is dependent on whatever you have. You're out to sea rations, the original packages of food that you cooked over heat pellets they gave you. Thomas Leckinger I think the best I saw was maybe a couple of guys doing a joint back in the rear. But that was it. I mean David Susskind nobody on the firing line, nobody in the woods. Thomas Leckinger Absolutely not Thomas Brinson not not in in the real forward combat areas. And again, when I was in the rear Eric cocoate, earlier in an urban area on the coastline, most of the time, and there was some drug involvement there was we had a classic store, which was a liquor store that was well stocked we had cases upon cases of beer. We had we had company parties, they when the American army moved in Vietnam, we moved the American society into Vietnam. And for for most of the soldiers that were over there, they had in their base camps in their fire support camps. full supplies David Susskind You said in my office, but not to me to somebody on the staff that you could identify the the men in your platoon that would survive that would live. Did you say? How could you tell who would be who would and who would die? Thomas Brinson I don't know. Our sixth sense, a intuition and intuition. John Catterson I had had a feeling the day I was wounded. And I was I just had that feeling Thomas Brinson and you never knew though, David, you never know. And it was such a you know, the third truck would go by and three trucks go by and the fourth truck would get blown out. Yeah. And it was purely a war stance and circomstance Lawrence Smith You could feel the tension Thomas Leckinger You didn't know Sometimes if there was there were people that just weren't comfortable is an infantryman out there and stuff. And you knew that sooner or later into the Unknown Speaker Who the hell could be comfortable out there John Catterson you just got to a point where you could adapt to your surroundings. Exactly. Human can adapt. Yeah. David Susskind And you can tell that, you know, in in World War Two, the war I had you we rehearse so much invasions. We just rehearsed. And you didn't. we'd rehearse for months and landing Marines on islands. And then we always rehearse in Hawaii or Saipem or something. Then you will almost hoping for the battle. You know, you were so bored. Yeah. Did you guys get bored? Thomas Brinson Oh yeah it was there many, many. Thomas Leckinger We mentioned that. Before that there was a lot of times over there. You'd be. We never had any rehearsals. I mean, basically we were we set ourselves up as bait. You'd go walking through the jungle until somebody shot at you and then you've got your fire. But many times you're walking around with 80 pound rucksack on your back. You got a 23 pound machine gun, you got ammo hanging all over you. It's hotter than hell. You're tired, you're going up and down. Leeches, mosquitos I mean, basically say, Man, I need to rest and the company is moving. You're moving with it and sooner. I can remember thinking 19 years old can remember thinking Oh God, I wish we get in a firefight. So I get a chance to take a break currently Oh, John Catterson jump up or down and shoot at somebody and then you Thomas Leckinger Get your labor portion of it. I John Catterson think that's what they describe as being 30 seconds of sheer terror followed by hours and day of Thomas Brinson hours of boredom and drudgery David Susskind You know how many men were killed in Vietnam? Almost 58,692. And the wounded must have been 300,300. I think about 287,000. And you always thought every day every night that you might be one of those, you could be statistics John Catterson I don't know, I I guess I thought at the time, I was immortal. I got I carried that with me a lot. I never thought I would be killed in Vietnam. There were a lot of people in my platoon who I thought, as Tom has said, weren't going to make it. I can remember the day before we left Vietnam, we were in California at El Toro the the Air Force, the Marine Corps Air Station in California. And we were calling home. And I had a friend who called his home, got off the phone and he was crying. And he said to me, I'm not coming back to Vietnam. And I'll never forget that he didn't. His name is on the wall in Washington. And in fact, he went to accompany David Susskind the monument with the names of the 57,692 men. John Catterson He was part of a company within my battalion and their their position was overrun, and my company moved into his area and we evacuated bodies and one of the bodies I evacuated and found was his body. And I've just never forgotten that. He told me he wasn't coming back and he didn't come back, Thomas Leckinger which says immortality. Lawrence Smith I don't know about immortality. I had constant fear. When I was there. I think we were such non combat a lot of times that the fear was tremendous. You just couldn't be John Catterson It wasn't any John Wayne, Going in there thinking I was bulletproof. But I but I would just walk out Lawrence Smith No od Murphy. no, John Wayne, was the other guy. John Catterson That's right. It always seemed like it was the other guy. And then we got to a point where you just you could feel if something was going to happen. You could recognize a bullet being fired 100 yards away as being friendly fire or hostile fire. You knew the cyclical way, the enemy machine guns. You knew that it was David Susskind No the war was gruesome. Horrific. Thomas Brinson Yeah. And any war is David Susskind Did you come back thinking you've done God's work that the communists have been stuck there? John Catterson Yes. I have a long time. I did. Did you really try for a long time? Thomas Brinson I came back I was, I flew back I happen to fly back into the great px land in the sky on the day that Martin Luther King was shot. David Susskind you came home that day. Thomas Brinson That day, I flew into Washington, DC, and locked out the Washington monument at the Capitol and Washington burning. And I said, Wait a minute, what says that was 15,000 miles over there? My country was in flames as the country that I had left that day. That day that Martin Luther King was was yes, yes. Yes. And and I came home with such a sense of what did I go there and, quote fighte, And I didn't do much fighting I had very, very little active actual combat in the area that I was and I said, What is it all about? And and I said in your office that I came back feeling that my service to country was somehow tainted? David Susskind Did you feel that Thomas Leckinger I was shot and that's why I'm I want to talk to John a little bit about this because our experience was basically the same we went to an evacuation hospital Vietnam, Japan and then St. Albans here in New York City. As did Larry. And I think that's where really where it came home to me I had again at that point seen some people hurt some people killed but not a lot. And when I went to Japan and just saw ward after ward after ward after ward with hundreds of guys who had lost limbs last legs quadric you know quality amps and stuff like that I just wasn't quite ready for us to come by me that just did me and I'm convinced today that some of the reasons that I've not had some of the difficulties of the Vietnam veterans experience is because of the decompression I had in hospital I spent seven months in hospital and I'm convinced that that helps yeah, here we there obviously Vietnam and and Anchorage and down to Walter Reed. I think that helped a lot you know, as opposed to the guys who were going to get up on scan you know, one day we're in London the next day they were in San Francisco 48 hours in the jungle firefight to in a concoction. There's no way your body can ever adjust. Make that kind of adjustment. David Susskind Do you think you did God's work. Do you think you stopped the communists? Or was it a rotten war between North and South Vietnam Thomas Brinson Not one square inch to Honolulu much less to San Francisco today. Thomas Leckinger I just I never gave it a thought. I mean, they said here's your machine gun Knock yourself out this guy's gonna try to kill you. You got to get him first. I never gave any thought at all to the political aspects of national aspects of it David Susskind You think the war now. I always thought the war was fall obscene immoral. I'm think you you feel that war was worth fighting? Thomas Leckinger Absolutely. not David Susskind was it worth one man's death, one man with an eye gone are leg gone? Thomas Leckinger no, it's probably the greatest tragedy that this country has ever Thomas Brinson And David is that the country does not want to deal with that. Our society does not want to listen to our experiences, and to learn from them David Susskind maybe you ough to go and talk to President Reagan and Secretary of State. Thomas Leckinger How do you say exactly? You know, you made the point when we're invading the terror to people, you cannot explain to people how, what it feels like to be laying there and getting shot knowing that 18 year old 19 years old, you're gonna die? How do you explain it to somebody like Reagan or Schultz or a few of these people? And say to him, do you understand what you're doing? You understand where you're bringing this country to David Susskind I don't think Reagan served in World War Two. Thomas Brinson I don't I don't think he I don't know. I think he David Susskind I think he may have done a little us. So I saw be funny in a nightclub. Thomas Brinson Again, David. It's it's the it's a real trying to define the uses of American power. And what is there to fight for our country. There's a it's a film that smothering dreams that has the opening of it. If you were to see this man with the whites of his eyes, and the blood gushing gurgling from him, and you would say, to belie the method of dying for one's country that was written by a need in the Iliad 2500 years ago, it's the same perpetuation of duty on a service, which yes, there is a need for but when they are actually coming in, and the back door, so to speak. And John Catterson 300 Men blown up blown up in a building in Beirut. Yes. And the President of the United States next day says we can't withdraw. We're looking I mean, words to the effect we need peace with honor. We need to wait to get out of Lebanon, we just can't withdraw. So we spent a few more lives thank God somebody came to their senses and got our Marines out of there David Susskind the pole said America is not ready to go to war. Do you think anything in sight at the moment that we sit here is no one is worth going to war about? Absolutely. Absolutely. Not. For you unanimous? Absolutely. I agree with you. Hold on. We'll be right back. |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES:
David Susskind You know, a lot of the veterans 40 to 50% is the educated guests suffer from Post Traumatic distress syndrome. Thomas Brinson The old PTSD bugaboo David Susskind PTSD, that can be guilt, sleep nightmares, extreme reaction to noise, impaired memory. Oh, gosh, all kinds of aberration of behavior. Thomas Brinson I call it a bugaboo. Dave and I was being flipped. David Susskind Have you had this? Thomas Brinson I'm sure I suffer from PTSD. But one of the things we talked about Post Traumatic Stress Disorder sanctioned recognized by the American Psychological Society. But what happens is that this is not a psychiatric condition. This is not an illness. This is not a disorder. This is a natural, appropriate human reaction to horror. And our society tries to say, hey, those crazy Vietnam veteran, you know, the guys are gonna go out and blow up something or have a have a flashback and tear up a bar. It's a way of stereotyping the combat veteran of the Vietnam veteran is being different instead of dealing with the real David Susskind Have you had it? this post syndrom Lawrence Smith Oh, yes. Oh, yes, quite a bit. I mean, Vietnam was just like, yesterday, I couldn't remember it. Just like I wake up. I was there. I have pain every day, you know, with your legs gone, this is gone. And I have pain every day. So naturally it always refers back to Vietnam. You know. So I can say so devastating to remember some of the things that we did over there and to describe fear. David Susskind What form does it take Mr. Smith? Larry Do You have nightmares? Lawrence Smith I still have nightmares. Yes, you know, perople David Susskind any other symptoms Lawrence Smith are you know, like when I hear a loud noise down the street, a truck backfire. I have a tendency to drop to the ground and people look around and they laugh. They think it's funny. I don't find it funny because, you know, as I'm diving to the ground, I can also hurt myself this glass in the street and everything. You know, I'm just taking cover because, you know, the lot of income, the mortars and artillery things that we had coming into David Susskind you're a married man, Lawrence Smith Yes I am. Going on 17 years David Susskind children Lawrence Smith yes I have one daughter. And I lost two children David Susskind You lay that at the door chemical Warefare Lawrence Smith Yes I do Definitely Agent Orange David Susskind what is agent Orange. That's a chemical Lawrence Smith it's a chemical that was sprayed in Vietnam to kill the growth of the trees and the vegetarian in the area so that we can see perhaps anatomy and we can have a base of fire David Susskind and there's lawsuits pending by many veterans as they have been rendered impotent that they've gotten forms of cancer one thing or another cancer suits in the court the United States is the defendant and chemical companies seven they really Lawrence Smith the definitive prepare for this next was I see coming up here with Nicaragua and everything another has another face which is jungle and I think they're going to use that forward to get David Susskind Let me ask you this question. As we talk about this, we are in at least a covert war, at least at least a covert war in El Salvador and a very, very covert war. Now Honduras now I'm sorry, Nicaragua. Thomas Leckinger You can see I'm setting up the now thing again, the scenario David Susskind based on your experience, your terror, your war, you're killing people. You're almost being killed, wounded. Three of you are wounded. Three of you are one yes, you were wounded. You lost a leg you were wounded. And several times. Now. Can you would you fight for El Salvador? Thomas Leckinger Absolutely not Thomas Brinson Not today and my son wont either David Susskind will you fight for Nicaragua? Would your son would you let us know? Because Reagan says go fight there. Thomas Leckinger That's not good enough anymore. Number one. Yeah. David Susskind Secretary of State show says you'll stop communism there. John Catterson Come on, come on. domino theory again. Dominoes. Are those words? Yeah. Thomas Leckinger They're trade. cliches. Thomas Brinson My son may choose to go fight for his country. But my son will have the other perspective. He will not need jerk say my country calls my kids no, my son will not be like I was grown up with the the myth of war through the John Wayne movies. David Susskind you see more saber rattling going on now. Thomas Brinson Without how many hours in the essence, John Catterson that's all I've seen this administration do is rattle their sabers that the Secretary of State is a battalion of Marines that we send wherever we want to send its soldiers and helicopters, and there have been no foreign policy. David Susskind Alright, how do you look on Lebanese experience? 243 Marines were killed that one morning Thomas Leckinger One day for what?You know. And we said that we said that ahead of time, I made a speech in California two weeks before the bombing in Beirut. And I said, you know, the moment Congress passed that 18 month extension, they signed the death warrant for 100 Marines. So I mean, what do you mean? I said, these people have no reason to hold off anymore. They've been holding off, hoping the Marines Congress and force them back out. And we're saying the 18 month extension two weeks later to come down out of the mountains and kill 243. Marines. What? What have we done? What have we accomplished? What we set out to accomplish? David Susskind Are you communist lovers? Are you pig nose? Are you soft on Communism? John Catterson I'm an American. And I and I believe in this country. David Susskind Are you loyal, patriotic? Lawrence Smith I will say loyal, patriotic compared to what happened to me. When I came back from Vietnam, especially for blacks. We came back and got a very royal share treatment when we cam back Thomas Leckinger But it's not unpatriotic to question. It's the most chaotic thing in the world, all of a sudden that the right wingers have taken the flag and wrap themselves up with it. And those of us know, David Susskind but I have to say after they've seen you on this show, are you left leaning? I don't how did you vote? Democrat, Republican, John Catterson Democrat, David Susskind Democrat, what are you Thomas Brinson Democrat? David Susskind What are you Lawrence Smith Democrat? Thomas Leckinger I'm a registered Democrat. I was a policeman for four years. David Susskind You're a policeman. So you're not a combat for critics? Thomas Leckinger I mean, come on. I've been red baited from one end of this country, another for questioning and saying, What are we doing? Why do you want my son or my daughters now to go down to Central America? What's going on in Lebanon, but all of a sudden, it becomes unpatriotic. And that's what this country is founded on? David Susskind Reagan would make it unpatriotic, but it Lawrence Smith always seemed to be close to any government. I mean, Vietnam was a third world country, El Salvador, or third world country. And we find that this country has always, you know, seem to be going to these third world countries. David Susskind Well, do you think that Nicaragua mining the harbor Lawrence Smith Nicaragua didn'tmine the harbor. No, wait a minute, I think that's totally wrong. I mean, that's his act of war, you're gonna have other ships Thomas Brinson its called white hats and black hats. And the thing that our country will not accept is that we wear black hats, as well as anyone else. And that we are human and, and one of the things that Vietnam veterans can teach our country is to deal with the shadow, as Jung would call it to deal with the beast within to deal with the humanity of being wrong. And our country is not used to being wrong, David Susskind or we've been wrong. But not dealing with seemingly wrong a bit terrible, and the other 57,692 guys are dead John Catterson That's 11 years later, 11 years later, that's that's not a generation. That's not even. That's that's that's not enough time to forget. That's not enough time for this country to have this still this experience and forgotten it. It can't be enough time and that and we're doing it again, and we're doing it and we're doing it openly and whether we are notoriously we're doing it. We're doing it in El Salvador. We're doing it. Thomas Leckinger We're doing it there right here in New York City that you We stand up here and support Pol Pot and the rest of these people Pol Pot killed 3 million people in Cambodia murdered him took him out and massacred him. Women Children you name it name got everybody and we stand up and say this guy represents the government Kampuchea and the reason we do that is because the Vietnamese government paying some rent is now in power and we don't want to see that this you know, this crazy David Susskind left leaning, he's a commie supporter, a lover that simply Thomas Brinson anti communism pro democracy Thomas Leckinger it's how can we do this David Susskind Do you love your country? Thomas Brinson Extraordinarily so David David Susskind You Lawrence Smith I will say I love this country because all the devastating that we have when we came back, no jobs David Susskind We'll come to what you came home you don't love it too much. You love your country. Thomas Leckinger Absolutely, This is my country. This is my hometown, you know, and I just I get so tired of people telling me that we're unpatriotic or we're somehow low. I mean, it's because you put your life on the line because we stand up and say why I just don't understand why a David Susskind communist sympathizer lover member the party on this Thomas Leckinger of course I'm no a Republican either David Susskind you know, well, some guys on Wall Street will be right back. |
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INTERVIEW CONCLUDES:
David Susskind All wars in the past, with the possible exception of Korea had the triumph and homecoming the people waving flags, the parades, people leaving out a Windows, you may not have been a hero, but you were treated like returning hero just because you were coming home. Having done your duty. How did you come home? What was it like? What did you come home to any parade? Lawrence Smith No parades. situation was worse when I got back home. David Susskind Worse than what Lawrence Smith when I left. You know, I went into the military say that I will serve my country. When I come home. I'm gonna have a decent job. decent place to live. Good education when I come back out. And wasn't wasn't there. Everything I had to do. We had to struggle to receive education, which we wanted. David Susskind Did you go back to school? Lawrence Smith I tried but my mind wasn't completely to towards it. Just coming back from Vietnam still fresh in my mind. My mind wasn't on, on study, because you're still thinking about Vietnam and to concentrate on your subjects. And David Susskind you're still thinking about today? Lawrence Smith Oh, yes, very much so. And also thinking about the two children are lost. Behind Agent Orange. You know David Susskind Do you think you're a victim of agent orange in terms of impotency or no you can have children but Lawrence Smith I can have children but one child died all the seasons all six months pregnant, and I had a child that was two months, and she passed away which they had called crib death at the time. I didn't know what the word crib death meant, David Susskind you know, smothering a child mother's itself in the blanket Lawrence Smith Well, this is not true. Because my child was invited to be smothered. It was pretty long part of the month. And when I when my wife called me to look at the child's she said something's wrong. And when I look, I seen that she was her eyes were glassy and hardly breathing and I rushed her to to the St. Albans Naval Hospital. And they said, Well, you know, we have to keep the baby and see what's happening. David Susskind Let me ask you a question. You're unemployed? Lawrence Smith Yes I am. David Susskind Have you worked on and off Lawrence Smith I tried but with the pain leg nd calluses and corns on the leg is was very hard for me to walk. Travel to the subways. You know, we don't have the proper David Susskind you have one leg off. You have a wooden leg. So you're on 100% disability, and what disability are you on? Thomas Leckinger 30%? David Susskind What's the matter with you? Thomas Leckinger I I still have a awful lot of shrapnel. My second wounding was a grenade. So I have lots of pieces of shrapnel running around I have some problems with my arm. I was shot in the arm. The first one was was a gunshot wound. I had problems with my left arm and stuff. David Susskind And the second Thomas Leckinger and the second was a grenade that went through my abdomen and stuff. David Susskind then you have a 30% disability. So you get a pension. How large is your pension? Thomas Leckinger 234 bucks a month and it's I guess it's about 175 base and then you get more if you have children. I have three children. David Susskind So it's a little less than $60 a week. Yeah. What's your pension for the loss of a leg? Lawrence Smith Not enough. All right. What is 1400 David Susskind a month? Diviby a week You got roughly $350 a week Lawrence Smith still not enough to live in New York. Live in New York City. I mean, it's nothing. I mean for the housing to pay for rent David Susskind roughly you're getting about 17,000 a year and that ain't enough does not know and you have a wifw and one child. three people living in New York City in the 1980s and trying to survive on 17,000 years that can't be done. And you your pension John Catterson $314 a month, David Susskind then 14 So you're roughly a little less than $60 a week. And you're living in New York. Yes. I'm not obviously living off that pension. No. You happen to be a lawyer. Yes. It's a good thing I never thought That's a good thing to be a lawyer. So you came home no ticket type no job. Are you bitter? Lawrence Smith Yes, I am very bitter. Very bitter. It is one of the main reasons why we formed our organization the way we did David Susskind Black Vietnam veterans. Lawrence Smith That's correct. We found that there was no facilities in our community. David Susskind Why don't you join there? They've got a Vietnam veterans, why do you make yourself different? Lawrence Smith Because our tendencied are differently than a white on Vietnam very much. I mean, they come home, they come home to job, David Susskind I've got some studies here that show these medical from job to job to Lawrence Smith There are not too many men who come into that office there who are looking for jobs or to work willing to work. They can't find employment, we have an employment, we can placement into work. David Susskind Alright, let me ask you a question. Nothing will erase the Vietnam experience. nothing the best job in the world. And more money than you ever dreamted of will not make you forget, Thomas Leckinger it shouldn't matter, right. I mean, we have a responsibility as veterans as witnesses to that event, yes. To come on shows like this and to go out and just talk about Thomas Brinson what happened to David in Europe. The veterans organizations are not like the traditional veterans organizations in this country. They don't glorify war. They don't talk about what they talk about the horror of war and work actively for peace. The the veterans organizations in France and Germany, David Susskind would you would defend your country if someone attacks? Thomas Brinson That'd be but in today's with thermonuclear destruction, what's it defend? You know, I mean, if a war is going to happen, yeah, David Susskind it must not have it must not happen. But Sable, Iraq and Iran do what they want with each other. It's not our business. It's not our business. And if somebody wants to fight in El Salvador north and south El Salvador, let them fight. Thomas Leckinger .How does that threaten the United States? David Susskind Well because Castro is exporting the communism Thomas Leckinger miles off the Florida coast for how many years now? John Catterson The problem isn't one that has more literary solution. It's one that has an economic economic salute to poverty and land reform. It's those kinds of problems that we saw in Vietnam. David Susskind You didn't know up this way when you're in Vietnam, You kind of learned about life,and war and dying. Thomas Brinson I was allowed. I was one of the earliest peaceniks in 1963 for college in college and what have you when Julian Bond and other UN people, but I went because it was I wanted to experience the war of my generation. David Susskind There's no war right now worth fighting Thomas Brinson That's right. And I learned that there was no war worth fighting. David Susskind Okay, unless were attacked every night.it sure did not. Hold on. But it made Americans feel good. We want. Again, we wanta postage stamp. How many metals they give out 8800 Medals was given out what? We'll be right back? David Susskind Thank you is too small a phrase for you, man. And I respect you. And I admire you and I thank you very much. That's it for tonight. Please join us |
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