Historic Films Stock Footage Archive: DS-10

01:00:22 0	David Susskind, Interviewer, Talk Show Host Good evening and welcome to open in my name is David Susskind, and tonight an exciting subject and I think very excellent guests. The late President Kennedy set a stunning pace in wit, style, and accomplishment in American political life. Are his brothers Bobby and Teddy following his lead? Can they match his record? Is the Kennedy name unbeatable? And will it be another Kennedy in the White House? I think our guests are very equipped to answer these questions. I present them to you now, our first guest, Mr. Benjamin Bradlee, formerly Washington bureau chief of Newsweek, and now managing editor of The Washington Post. Gore Vidal, playwright, novelist and a former candidate from Congress, who's biting satires frequently deal with politics and politicians, notably the play and the film, the Best Man. Robert Novak, who with Roland Evans writes the highly provocative and stimulating column, Inside Report, which appears in the New York Herald Tribune, and many other newspapers. In just a few moments, we'll be joined by Mr. Max Friedman, who is a syndicated columnist appearing in the Chicago Daily News and many other papers.
01:01:31 69.21	Susskind: Gentlemen, how powerful politically is the candidate name? Is it unbeatable? Speaker 2 01:15. Gore Vidal Well, it seems to be unbeatable at the moment. I've Of course, I'm in a benign, I've been living in Rome, David, and I'm an ecumenical mood now. But it'll be interesting to see how far Bobby goes in New York State. I've just been back and up state. And apparently he is trying to take over the machinery of the state would be interesting to talk about here. He held a meeting with the county leaders a week or so ago, and told them that for governor against Rockefeller, there wasn't gonna be any of them. No regular line politician would be somebody from outside brought in. Bobby Kennedy will not choose O'Connor. He will not choose O'Connor unless the delegates decided to choose him, which I think is doubtful, but he is trying to take over the organization and be able to see what happens. Susskind 1 02:01 Can I ask you how you rate Bobby and Teddy in the area of political depth and savvy, Ben you've been in this town a long time? Speaker 3 Ben Bradlee 02:11 Well I think you'd have to give it to the the junior senator from New York. I mean, I think he's got much more, more guts. The I've been in upstate Massachusetts, wherever that is, and the absence of the Teddy Kennedy in Massachusetts is is very noticeable. I mean, what he is not doing what Bobby is in New York. He is there's a catfight going on up there for for governor, including a lot of old Kennedy, mafia types. And Teddy is staying very clear of that.
01:03:14 171.6	Susskind 02:51 Bobby, is rated how by his confers in the Senate. Do they like him? Do they respect him? Speaker 4 Robert Novak 02:57 I don't think he is particularly well liked in the in the Senate, David. I think I think Teddy on the other hand had started off very well in the senate from a bad beginning. That is to say he came there when President when John kennedy was still president. There was a lot of prejudice against him, and he worked quite well in the Senate did the right things, was very careful when making his contacts and about three years of work was shot with the nomination of Judge Morrissey, in which by pressing the case much farther than he should have Teddy Kennedy, I think hurt his standing and almost brought him back to where he had started. On the other hand, Bobby Kennedy has never really made the tremendous effort in the Senate that Teddy made in those first few years to become a member of the inner club. I in that way, I think he is more like as his brother who never made a great effort to be a member of the inner club of the Senate. Susskind1 04:01 The common charge against Bobby Kennedy throughout his political career has been brashness and arrogance. Has he displayed those symptoms in the senate now? and how have his colleagues reacted. Speaker 3 Ben Bradlee 04:12 I don't think he has displayed much in the Senate. I think he's displayed it elsewhere outside. I think popularity in the Senate is an irrelevant standard. (Susskind: well has he been a good Senator?). There have been a few senators who were easy to love and hard to follow. And I think probably yes, by by any pragmatic standard, he probably has been. A traditional Kennedy you know, you know, as I can do more for Massachusetts, or I can do more for New York. I think it's the fact that he damn well can.
01:05:03 281.02	Speaker 4 Novak 04:41 I think it's a question of whether you're I don't I don't know, I think popularity in the Senate is relevant if you're going to be if you're trying to be a senate power. For example, the member of the class of 1964 that was elected, that is the freshmen were elected in 64, who is most likely to succeed in the Senate is a young senator from Oklahoma named Fred Harris, who probably nobody knows about outside the confines of Oklahoma or Washington, but he's he's done all the things that Lyndon Johnson did when Johnson first came to the Senate, he's ingratiated himself with the old oligarchy that still has some control in the Senate. But Bobby hasn't done these things. Because I think mainly he isn't he isn't interested in a senate career. He's interested in something quite different. Speaker 1 Susskind 05:26 Bobby and Kennedy were the leaders and pressing the nomination of Judge Morrissey to the court to the bench. He was an all family retainer and commonly acknowledged as a legal hack. And the senate turned down, the committee ,it never got to the Senate floor. Has that defeat hurt Bobby and Teddy particularly, hard? Bradlee: It's gonna take a long time. Sure, it has Speaker 1 Susskind 05:52 will it blow over? Will it Speaker 4 Novak 05:56 Teddy more than Bobby. I would think because it's his responsibility. Speaker 2 Gore Vidal In the long run you must remember that the public's memory of anything is about eight weeks. And you may try and people may try to keep it alive, it'll be long since forgotten. It's another year or so.
01:06:30 368.11	Speaker 4 Novak 06:09 But the Senate's memory is longer. What what I think that hurt him in the Senate. And again, I agree with Ben to certain extent that beyond the Senate, the national implications of this are minimal. But the there are some democratic senators who feel that the Morrissey nomination was pursued a mite too long, that is that they were on the spot, whether they were going to be a party regular or get blasted by their editorials back home. And so I think it did her Teddy in the senate publicly. I doubt it. Susskind And tangentially Bobby. Novak 06:41 not so much. I don't know the Speaker 2 Vidal 06:43 Kennedys have been lucky about a double standard. You know that there is one standard of ethics for most politicians. And in their case, Jimmy Wexler and so on will absolutely forgive it, you know, that is all right to make deals with bosses, if you are a Kennedy, whereas anybody else is trimming or being opportunistic. Speaker 1 Susskind 06:59 I have to be opportunistic. And pause now, for commercial a message. We'll be right back.
01:07:27 425.12	Fade out. Blank. Commercial break.
01:08:10 467.85	Show Returns. Susskind: I wanted to ask you, welcome Max Freedman of the Chicago Daily News.Ah This question both Kennedy, Bobby and Kennedy, Teddy have become members of that small militant group of liberal democratic senators. Do you judge this to be an honest expression of their political philosophy or prime political strategy? Speaker 5 Max Freedman, Chicago Daily News. 08:09 No, I think it's an honest expression of their political philosophy and the fact that it's also good politics doesn't hurt. Speaker 1 Susskind 08:14 Are they trying to preempt the liberal sector moving left to President Johnson and therefore carving out private political ground for themselves in the future? Speaker 5 Max Freedman 08:26 Yes, I think they're overlapping President Johnson's control of the center of political activity and also moving slightly to the left. That's the only place for a democratic leader to go there's no future and going to the right. But the important thing is that, to me, at least, that Senator Robert Kennedy is now moving in the direction of challenging physicians policies, attitudes, identified with the senator and vice president Hubert Humphrey. I think that you're going to get into conflict there. Speaker 1 Susskind 09:05 Well, knowing Robert Kennedy for a long time, most of you from the early days of the McCarthy committee right through today, have you always judged him to be a political liberal? Hasn't he in the past expressed rather eloquent contempt for liberals?
01:09:45 562.28	Speaker 2 Gore Vidal 09:22 Well, I think the key word for Kennedy is a word they always liked so much, pragmatic. I think it's the old case of I mean to rise because I mean to rise, and it's sort of life is a great game of Monopoly. And I think they will take that, doesn't mean they can't be very useful public servants, but philosophy seems to be a wrong word to apply to them. I don't think Bobby's a particularly thoughtful person would, you? Know, Speaker 5 Freedman 09:50 I would I would disagree with I would think every sentence that I always thought that Bobby Kennedy was liberal, sensitive, idealistic. Speaker 2 Vidal 10:02 Well, on civil rights, he certainly came rather late to it. You may say that was because the administration wasn't, well, there were people earlier.(Freedman: who?). Vidal: Senator Douglas was one. I'll give you a whole list right in New York State people whose names you wouldn't know but have been Activist Speaker 4 Robert Novak 10:21 I don't see how you can possibly say that Bobby Kennedy, the Bobby Kennedy of, of 10 years ago, or better still, the Bobby Kennedy of 13 years ago was a liberal. He simply wasn't, he was also a very young man. And I don't think I don't think the position he took at that time at is necessarily very significant. I think that I think that any politician who is interested in the national scene has got to be flexible, unless he's going to be a Barry Goldwater who takes a position and then sticks his feet three inches into the ground. Certainly the movement of Johnson from his record as a freshman senator, to where he is today is much more dramatic than Kennedy's. Susskind: Speaker 1 11:01 would you then appraise the Bobby Kennedy and Teddy Kennedy, moving away from the Johnson administration on many issues in recent times, Robert's pressing independently for the non proliferation of atomic weapon treaty, his differences with the administration over the Dominican intervention, he warning against concentrating on military solution in Vietnam, to the detriment of political solution. What is he doing jousting with the Johnson administration? Speaker 4 Robert Novak 11:32 I think there's two things I think he's he is using his brother's speeches, John Kennedy speeches as a kind of a writ a dogma, and he's measuring President Johnson's action against those speeches, and were where they don't, in his opinion, measure up then he he comments on him. I think there's a part of an emotional and a sentimental factor in that because he doesn't like President Johnson much. But there is also a political factor. He is the the democratic opposition he's about as much of an opposition party, the Kennedy party is as much an opposition party there is today considering the feebleness of the republicans and the only opposition you can have is from the left of Johnson, you can't
01:12:40 737.99	Speaker 2 Gore Vidal 12:16 It's difficult even then to make positions. If you really want to take a position. Vietnam is wide open for some sort of reappraisal Novak? He's skating on the edge there Speaker 2 12:27 Hopefully he slides very careful, and perhaps is indeed or ought to be, but that seems to me to be where the the party might have a vocal opposition to the president's escalated war. Speaker 1 Susskind 12:38 is it Bobby Kennedy's strategy to establish himself as independent of the Johnson administration and more liberal than LBJ is that his angle? Speaker 3 Ben Bradlee 12:46 I think that's probably a good position. Yeah. And I think you're getting close to it. What's important on it is that, I think is that when, when Bobby Kennedy takes a position in opposition to Lyndon Johnson it in fact, is more important than when people with a better right to do so, a longer right like Joe Clark, for instance, or Paul Douglas, or Wayne Moss, Greening, some of those people do it, it doesn't get in the papers. And that's just a fact of life. And therefore, you are coming back to what we're talking about here. What is their future? it's a heck of a future. Speaker 1 Susskind 13:26 What is the current status Max, to the extent that you know it, between LBJ and Speaker 5 Freedman 13:31 Before you ask me this question, I've been troubled over your use of the word jousting with this administration. I may be quite wrong, but I think neither the president or Senator Robert Kennedy would accept that word. (Susskind: Not publicly) No or privately. When you read the full text of all his speeches, which you've mentioned, you will find that four fifths of the speeches are full throated under section of presidential policy. our profession, not averse to cultivating points of difference in controversy, has emphasized legitimate disagreements. Now, when President Johnson was a senator, he was the last senator to believe that he had to be the echo of an administration. So that in trying to be a good senator, Bob Kennedy is on occasion, saying things which do not in every particular coincide with the wishes or the announced programs of the administration. That doesn't mean that a rival Empire inside the Democratic Party is under organization by the Kennedys.
01:15:04 882.08	Speaker 2 Vidal 14:41 this will come as great news at the White House. (Freedman: I doubt it) and elsewhere in the country. (Max Freedman: I doubt it very much) Speaker 3 Ben Bradlee 14:49 Not saying that they're not the the Kennedys are not interested in the areas of disagreement with the administration to Latin America, where it was an act against Mr. Mann, point by point by point point. Bobby Kennedy had a bet with someone in the administration about and won it Freedman what I'm saying is that what that Vidal 15:11 whether they would be asked on the Dominican Republic Speaker 3 15:14 He had a bet with uh Mann who was, not Mann, Vaughn, Mann's Deputy, as to the impact of the Dominican episode on public opinion, and how many questions about this would he be asked, and ones that he'd be damn surprised if he if they asked any questions on it Speaker 4 Novak 15:33 I think the I think the interesting thing that Bobby's ? in South America was the as far as the speeches, at least the speeches that were reported here, the the disappearance of President Johnson because his source was President Kennedy at all times, president john kennedy. And as President Kennedy said this and President Kennedy said that and when he was asked about the by the left wing students, whether the the rich and the reactionaries didn't control the United States, he pointed to President Kennedy's election as a sign that the rich didn't control the United States. Speaker 1 Susskind 16:13 Well we are right on the point that fascinates me. What do you make of the current relationship between President Johnson and Robert Kennedy? Speaker 2 Gore Vidal 16:20 Well, the gentleman on my left here (Max Freedman) thinks that they're as one. Freedman 16:24 I said nothing like that. Speaker 2 16:26 I Think you said there is no basic disagreement,you just said it between the presidential party, the Johnson party and the Kennedy sub party (Susskind: there was hostility) there is hostility. Speaker 1 Susskind 16:35 There was tension and aggravation in the relationship, has it disappeared is it better?
01:17:02 999.68	Speaker 5 Freedman 16:39 I am quite ready to defend my position Gore, but not as you formulate it for me. Speaker 2 Vidal 16:44 I was trying to echo you not a choice. But my own echo. And I thought that's what you said that there was no great difference between them that there are little tiny things with the press plays up grand differences. Speaker 5 Vidal 16:56 That's, that's closer to what I said. And I stick by that. And the proof is in the text of Bobby Kennedy speeches. My point is a very simple one. Perhaps simple minded, but still simple. I operate on the principle that Senator Robert Kennedy and President Johnson are members in good standing of the Democratic Party, that President Johnson will be renominated in 1968, that one would have to be blind to the elementary axioms of political survival, to base your political activity in 1965. And a challenge to the man who was in control of the party. (Novak: Why is that?) Because Bobby Kennedy is not going to take the nomination away from Lyndon Johnson. Speaker 4 Novak 17:43 No, But we're not talking about 68. We're talking about subsequent years. Speaker 5 Max Freedman 17:47 Oh, well if you are that then the whole thing changes. And what you are doing is carrying out a long philosophical debate under the drift of party thinking , the direction of American policy, which is to me in the great tradition of the Democratic Party. Novak I don't think it's philosophical. I think it's Speaker 1 Sussman 18:07 specifically at this moment, what is the relationship between the two men? It used to be one of the mutual loathing and then Gore Vidal 18:17 my answer is correct without being courted. sussman What is your answer? Gore Vidall Correct without being correct without being cordial Gore Vidal 18:24 That answer was not to you, David, but to the question is cordial Susskind Do you take issue Do you agree? Speaker 3 Bradlee 18:30 No I don't, I think that's fine. I mean, correct. That's correct. ? nobody reads. Speaker 4 Novak 18:36 But of course, it's corrective. If we're, if we're not correct, then you'd really have a fantastic situation. But when, when, when Bobby Kennedy make made a speech, or a statement, I don't know which it was that he made New York recently, which he said that there will be there'll be a very bad situation in this country if the anti poverty program were cut down to finance the war in Vietnam. This is to me the consummate position of an opposition leader. If I were in opposition to the to the Johnson administrationm this is their weakness. This is a dilemma that they're facing. It's a weak spot to probe and whenever there's a weak spot to probe, Senator Robert Kennedy probes it.
01:19:40 1158	Speaker 3 Bradlee 19:18 he is taking the position that has been preempted by Humphrey. Humphrey is now this is Humphreys normal role, and it's going to Robert Kennedy. 19:30 Listen, And there's one question. That's the real problem. 19:33 Do you think that's right? Speaker 2 19:34 I certainly do. But I would like to ask and it's I've never seen it really printed that because of just before the assassination that they were plans afoot to replace Johnson as vice president because of the bobby Baker scandal, which was getting worse and worse. And this was the origin of the really severe hard feelings between them ? I don't think that's so Speaker 4 Novak 19:55 nothing, and it wasn't the origin of the hard feelings between Bobby Kennedy and Johnson. Speaker 1 Susskind no They go back further. Is there a difference in the relationship between President Johnson and teddy kennedy? As opposed to ( Bradlee: I don't know if there's any relationship?). You don't think there's 100 senators and Speaker 5 Freemman 20:11 My nswer to that is yes. friendlier towards Teddy, Susskind 20:16 friendlier? Correct and more than gorgeous 20:19 Freedman Yes. Speaker 1 20:20 We have to pause for a cordial message. We'll be back in just a moment.
01:20:48 1225.52	Commercial break pause, blank.
01:21:14 1251.6	Susskind Let me ask you whether there's any doubt in any of your minds that Bobby Kennedy is actively staking out the presidential nomination in 1972. Speaker 2 Gore Vidal 21:02 I think that's I think it's probably interested in what interests me right now, which we can study and not just conjecture is his move to take over machinery in New York State, and his great difficulties with it. He's tried to dump Zaretsky and travia as leaders in the assembly, and he failed. He's now told them that they're going to have an outside man run for governor. And in general, he's making all the moves to take over and it's going very slowly. And I remember making a little speech about the time he was coming in, in New York to some county leaders. And I said, if he comes in, you'll all be out in two years. They all chuckled and laughed among themselves. But this is the plan, he will replace them. Not that I have any great grief for them. But they really asked the tiger to come into the tent. I have a nice feeling of I told you so Bill McEwen sitting out there in radio land, (Sussman: our former chairman will take over in New York state would be a move to have a very important base for the convention). course is to control was 114 delegates, it's all important. And for himself or for whatever candidate he might have to be behind. its going much slower than he thought and it's very hard. A Senator, as they keep telling us has no power base and it stays, the governor is the mayor. Lindsay is mayor. The governor is going to be very important if they ran a strong man like O'Connor. He O'Connor will run the state. Bobby won't run O'Connor Speaker 4 Novak 22:24 But Gore I think you're you're suggesting that this is number one on his list of priorities and is commanding most of his attention this business in New York State, which I don't think is true today. Speaker 2 Gore Vidal 22:39 They are at it all the time. If you say that it is more important for him to swing through South America and to begin a kind of national record. Of course it is. But I'm just talking about machinery which which we can study and look at
01:23:14 1371.63	Speaker Freedman Don't the two go together. Speaker 4 Novak 22:51 They go together. But I mean, I don't think that he is has spent nearly as much time on his home state as many other less publicized senators do. I think he is he has jumped into the national picture to a much greater degree (Vidal: he has what he has to be a fool f he didn't, he's got to secure his own base. And it is not going as quickly as he had expected.) Speaker 3 Bradlee 23:14 I think when you say actively seeking the nomination in 72. I think that overstates it. I mean, he doesn't get up in the morning and say, What can I do today that will improve my position in 1972? ? 23:24 Are you sure? Bradlee No I'm not sure but, i see, But there's a an an inevitability to that confrontation in 1972. Pavlovian. 23:34 if you knew Speaker 1 Susskind 23:35 if you agreed that he may not wake up in the morning, but perhaps he does it before going to bed at night, do you think he'll get the nomination? Speaker 4 Novak 23:42 Well, that's the problem in talking about that is there's there's so many things that can happen. So many people, natural events can happen, deaths, new figures coming out. All that I can say now is that Bobby Kennedy's friends tell me that he feels that President Johnson will do all in his power to stop him from ever getting the nomination. And secondly, that right today, today, if if, if he had to find, if Johnson had to find somebody to beat Bobby Kennedy would be out of luck, because the only guy in the democratic party who could stop Kennedy would be Johnson himself. And that because he's president, (Susskind: what about Hubert Humphrey?) I don't think he'd have a chance 24:25 Vidal Unless something interesting happens in the next two years Novak - maybe Today we're talking about Speaker 3 Bradlee 24:28 do we think he's going to run in 72? I would, I would say certainly. And I think he will. I think the confrontation as of now, as Bob says, There are 9000 things that can change it but I don't think the race between Bobby Kennedy and Humphrey would be a race. Speaker 1 Susskind 24:45 Why is Humphrey's political star receding? Speaker ? Receding from what Susskind Well from its early impetus. From its early vitality Speaker 4 Novak certainly in 1960 His his his campaign for the presidential nomination was to his supporters and to some people want to some people who weren't his supporters it was very disappointing. Um, he's never been able to project nationally. Speaker 3 25:10 Bradlee And that was this day. His popularity was measurably a stop Kennedy popularity Bradlee to I mean, whatever he did him I mean by the meter of his campaign in West Virginia was ?
01:25:46 1524.05	Speaker 1 25:23 Susskind well, the recent Gallup poll showing that Bobby Kennedy running for president would trounce Hubert Humphrey. Will this or has it already induced a search on the part of President Johnson for someone more exciting someone more successful 25:40 bradlee I don't think that's feasible. Bradlee Humphrey's chef thinks it's possible but that's why there's a lot of trouble and Humphrey staff right now. You said one of them was sacked. Speaker 2 Gore Vidal One of his problems of course in projecting an image is lack of money Speaker 4 25:52 Novak Why do you think that's so unfeasible man that that could be a new vice presidential candidate in 68? 25:59 Bradlee Oh I think that would disrupt the Democratic Party. Yes disrupt it. I mean, whose he gonna pick, I mean if if he dumps Hubert Humphrey, which is not conceivable to me. There would be an even greater division if he'd picked anybody but Robert Kennedy Speaker 4 Novak 26:14 .Obviously not McNemara. But But you mean, you don't think he has the power that Roosevelt had in 44? Speaker 2 vidal 26:23 Well, there were different pressures on Roosevelt, who t going to put the pressure on Johnson to drop Humphrey? 26:29 Novak I don't think Humphrey. I think it's in the realm of the possible, not probable Speaker 1 26:34 Is Humphrey taking steps to well, more than firing somebody on his staff? Speaker 3 Bradlee 26:41 What steps can he take with the president? When any president I mean, you know, in 1963, all of us historians were writing stories about what ever happened to Lyndon Johnson. Lyndon Johnson used to call up reporters and bureau chiefs and have them come up just to talk to Speaker 4 27:01 And sometimes he would, he would be told I don't have time to see Mr. Vice president. Speaker 2 27:05 Yeah. And Ben and I can remember in parties, in the approach to the Vice President, people would run from the room at the very thought of him, now they've lost their chain? 27:15 bradlee Well its endemic to the office, isn't it? Don't you agree Max Freedman Yes I agree. i also think that the President remembers some of the people who ran 27:23 Gore you stayed still Speaker 1 Susskind 27:26 is the assignment of vice president Humphrey to take this tour in the Far East a move on the part of President Johnson to give him new image to give him a new vitality as a political figure?
01:28:02 1659.3	Freedman It's news to me that the president is the least bit worried about the Vice President. Or, that the Vice President is seriously worried about the Gallup polls. Novak I would say that the later is an uncontrovertible fact. That he is not only worried but almost panicky about the Gallup polls. Freedman No i don't agree Bradlee Well if you were Vice President and you knew that you had 20 percent support only and you'd like to be President one day Freedman Well because Hubert Humphrey has been around for some time and he knows that the worst possible thing for a Vice President is to be a Vice President with an independent political standing, statements and power in the country. Novak I think its essential for him Freedman No I disagree. The Vice President, this particular Vice President, knew when he took the office that the time would come when he'd be under very sharp criticism from his own liberal friends to pursue a policy that would be in some respects different from the President's. And very early in this administration he made it clear that that is the last thing he would ever to. and the idea that you can measure the popular standing of a Vice President who is standing in she shadow of a President, and his whole policy is based on no cooperation seems to me something that is beyond the mechanism of the Gallup Poll to measure. Novak Well its difficult but Johnson certainly tried to keep his fences mended in Texas when he was the Vice President. I think Nixon had a completely independent political operation when he was Vice President. He almost won the Presidency , he came within a hair of the Susskind If you're unanimous that he does have very active aspirations for the Presidency in '72 (Novak - we're talking about Kennedy now?). Robert, Robert Kennedy. Does he have the charisma for it? Can he make it, would he win?
01:29:58 1775.59	Speaker 2 Vidal 29:35 he has the charisma of cash, David, and this is all it matters, the nice thing about the United States it is for sale and I was set out with enough time and enough money and enough shrewdness about it. Now it can be done you can create any kind of image the press in a census for sale by that. I mean, you gentlemen wouldn't take money easy, Speaker 2 29:57 But the President's hands can be glamorized. I can be taken in they can be up to a point manipulated, and vast amount of publicity can be paid for you can be on the cover of Time Life Look one after the other incessantly until people just think Well, my gosh, he's been around he must be the president or something by now. Speaker 4 Novak 30:15 Well, I, I don't think money can bite can bite nominations. It certainly helps, though. And it's certainly essential, but there has to be something new or good politics. And the fact is, I think that this candidate, this Kennedy, glamour, or myth, or romance is a much bigger asset to Bobby Kennedy than money, but that Vidal it came out of money is my point you must be crude. where did it originate? Speaker 3 30:40 also the it's it's patently unfair to say that that's the only charisma that Robert Kennedy had
01:31:18 1855.3	Speaker 2 Vidal If they didn't have the money, he wouldn't be there. No. And I'm just saying had Joe Kennedy not made all that money, Susskind: Do you think his charisma extends far beyond his cash? Freedman Oh, of course, he has great abilities Susskind And emotional legacy from Speaker 5 Freedman great ability, great capacity for public service, a devotion to the national service. This is quite a fellow, being the sort of Senator that astonishes m. When he was elected he said that, on the basis of his experience in the executive branch, he didn't want to be a talking senator, wanted to get things done. His model was to be senator Wagner or senator Norris, and instead of that he's been very much a talking senator. Speaker 1 Susskind 31:58 There's a new book, Robert Kennedy at 40 by Nick Timish, William Johnson, two Time magazine reporters. I think it's a rather good book and rather fair, and they conclude with this paragraph, and I wonder what you feel about it, "as Americans consider Bobby Kennedy for the presidency now, many will have a feeling of ambivalence of uncertainty, they will see many of the traits they demand of a president and many they could not allow. They do not want a weakling. And Bobby is not one, neither do they want a man who shoves people around and Bobby has done that. They want a leader, and Bobby is, but they do not want a man who takes his followers for granted, and Bobby has done that. Indeed, Americans must wonder whether Robert Kennedy is a man who should be trusted with the presidency." How would you evaluate that? Is he eh, does he push people around? Is impetuous? Speaker 4 Novak 32:30 He doesn't. Can you apply that paragraph to Lyndon Johnson just as easily, or even more aptly, I think so. Speaker 5 Freedman you could apply it to every politician except General Eisenhower who wasn't a politician. ? I mean one of the greatest politicians that ever lived. Freedman In his way I quite agree. Speaker 3 Bradlee 32:47 But but to say that a politician pushes somebody around. That's what the game is about. I mean ah ? He does it with less charm than others. He can be rather crude about it. ? 32:57 He does it with less charm than Johnson you think? Speaker 2 Vidal 33:00 Johnson, I think is, I agree with Mr. Freedman, one of the greatest Americans charming, wise, witty, clever, and I sleep better every day knowing that he's my president. 33:09 Thank you. Mr. Gore Vidal Thank you very much. Good evening to you all. Speaker 1 Susskind 33:13 Where would you fault Bobby Kennedy as a potential presidential candidate, what quality what qualities do you take issue with what things conflicts but not accomplished. Speaker 4 Novak 33:24 What are you saying? I mean, what why what am I saying that may or may not make him a good president or what may or may not make him a good presidential candidate? I think the two different things
01:33:55 2013.12	Speaker 1 Susskind 33:57 well, what would make him not a good president? Are there qualities that trouble you? Speaker 4 33:38 There's there's qualities in every politician that trouble me. I I love no politician that I know of. Eh is a great and good man. I don't I don't think he is a an evil monster or some some kind of a demon from out of the depths. But there's ah there's qualities that he has trouble me, qualities that Johnson has trouble me. I think the more interesting thing is now what what that what is his deficiencies as a candidate is a more interesting question.(Susskind: All right, what are they?). and I think he does have deficiencies as a candidate as witness by the fact that he ran so far behind Johnson in New York State Speaker 2 34:18 One million, 900,000 democratic votes for Keating the largest split ticket in history of the country Speaker 4 Novak 34:23 And uh his deficiencies are , he as of of the fall of 1964, when he ran for the Senate he he did not make contact (Freedman: a pretty big vote for a carpetbagger, though wasn't it). i think, i don't i don't think carpetbagger is an app was a was a real problem that he had. I think his problem in New York was that he he frightened some of the traditional liberal democratic votes, some of the Jewish vote in New York. Now, I think I think that is has been his problem as a as a campaigner in New York, I think he would have a very tough beating Keating on a head on race if Johnson hadn't been at the top of the ticket, but I think he has made great strides in correcting that in the past year. I think he is in much better shape with many of the with the liberal community, with the liberal intellectual community with the ADA types than he was a year ago. And I think he's going to make more progress as the years go by. So I think that his his left flank, which in many ways was his weakest is being sured up. The question is, Is he still emotionally frightened of these people? And I don't know the answer. Susskind to Bradlee You see any other problems or deficiencies. Speaker 5 Freedman Bob's analysis explains why it's necessary for Senator Kennedy to make the sort of speeches he is making, quite apart from any possible rivalry with the president, or quite apart from plans for 1972. His own immediate political situation is which I agree, compels him to move in this direction. Susskind Are there qualities about him that dissuade you? Freedman Well, you asked them the question, first, I'll cue up.
01:36:28 2166.05	Speaker 3 Bradlee 36:33 I think the thing that scared most people about Bob Kennedy, was ambition, that he was too ambitious, too much in a hurry. That'll certainly be somethin, a black mark against him when he runs. But on the other hand, it isn't a it doesn't have all that validity. Because once you've got big casino, there's no more ambition. There's there's nothing else to run for. I think personally, that he's characteristic of his that has given me trouble over the years that I've known him and his thin skinness. But that's a Kennedy's have that Speaker 4 Novak 36:48 That's almost a political disease. Certainly, again, I mean, the criticisms that are made of Kennedy, can be made of of Johnson in spades. 36:57 Bradlee Yeah, but we're talking about guilt. Novak These are not special Speaker 3 37:02 Criticism of Robert Kennedy is apt to cost something. Speaker 2 37:12 Yes. vindictiveness they follow through you're struck from the social lists? Speaker 3 37:17 Oh, well, that that doesn't mean much difference but but (Susskind: you don't get press releases). I mean, well, no, not that but that you just don't have the access and furthermore, there is a there is a positive reverse flow there of bum wrapping if you want or lack of trust or the things like this, on which journalists they've got to have that they've got to have that contact in which you can get Speaker 1 Susskind 37:45 it is said that Bobby Kennedy has a list of people that he doesn't like, people who've written about him disparagingly, people that are to be dealt with. I don't know if he's got a list but if he does, it changes (Susskind Are you on it? or you want it Bradlee I don't know right now. I hope not because I I think what we're proving is the this is a man you cannot dismiss. this is a man of great quality and he can bug you and does but there it is. Speaker 2 Gore Vidal The nice thing that I hear from his admirers for five years now they say but you don't understand Bobby's grown now he's about nine foot tall starting from dwarfs. Lincoln is a dwarf decide. Speaker 1 Susskind We'll have to pause again. We'll be back in a moment.
01:38:53 2310.37	Pause for commercial break. blank
01:39:56 2373.95	Susskind: We've spoken a great deal about Bobby Kennedy, and almost not at all about Teddy Kennedy. Is teddy kennedy a serious prospect or will the law of seniority of Kennedy govern. In other words Bobby's older is the natural Gore Vidal you're looking at me hopefully and I have nothing to say about Teddy. Speaker 4 Novak 39:52 Are you asking whether Bobby Kennedy will will step aside for Teddy Kennedy run for president? Is that what you're suggesting? Speaker 1 40:01 Well I'm asking for a variety of reasons if Bobby Kennedy somehow can't make it. If ah the quality that Speaker 4 Novak 40:09 we find we found it hard to talk about 1972 I think it's even harder to talk about the Susskind 1984. Speaker 4 40:17 Robert Novak You said it. I mean, this is so far beyond beyond what's going on. Now, the only thing I think you can say about Teddy Kennedy is what I said some time back, is that he is He has made he made a much more concerted effort than Bobby to be an inside senator on legislating senator and his work on the immigration bill, on the anti poll tax amendment got fairly high grades in the Senate. He seems to take more to the workaday world of the Senate than Bobby does Speaker 2 Gore Vidal 40:57 And he has done nothing which fascinates me about all the Kennedys, about Massachusetts, which is the most corrupt state probably in the Union. And you would think that honor would dictate that if you were the Senator from a state like that. That you would in some way identify yourself with cleanup forces that you wouldn't be so beholden to the political machinery. Speaker 3 Bradlee But you yourself have pointed out the difficulties in that in New York that senators don't run the, I agree with you Speaker 2 41:22 Yeah but i mean the Kennedys do run Massachusetts in a way that I mean, they pick governors Speaker 3 Bradlee There's a Kennedy party in Massachusetts, which has always been distinct from from Democrats, 41:33 Speaker ? and always under attack by other Democrats. Speaker 4 Novak 41:35 But I think Teddy took took a greater interest at least, at least for a while. His first year as a senator in Massachusetts politics than jack kennedy ever did. For example, the state Chairman in Massachusetts, he was still state chairman and is a very strong Kennedy man. he has Teddy Kennedy he has strong ties with the president of the State Senate. I think that he has taken a greater interest in party affairs. And I'm not saying whether it's been any any beneficial or reform interest. But I do think that he's got his hands tied in this in this race for for governor. Speaker 1 Susskind 42:13 How successful in your opinion, has Robert Kennedy been in building political basis around the country? He has Ribicoff and Bailey in Connecticut, he has his brother in Massachusetts, he has Birchby in Indiana. Where else do you see him effective? 42:29 Vidal He's in Maryland. Novak You're not talking about bases you're talking about allies. (Susskind: Allies) Because Birchby is not a base he's an ally. And he doesn't control the Indiana party. He controls the Indiana party a lot less than Teddy Kennedy controls the Massachusetts party. I think he's got, i think Bobby Kennedy has inherited alot of Jack Kennedy's supporters around the country and uh made them his own, whether their bases they can be described as bases at this time i don't know.
01:43:21 2578.81	Ben Bradlee Put him on a main street and see who follows him. There's the base. ? He could beat anybody in a primary today, anybody. Susskind Robert Kennedy could beat anybody Bradlee Sure he could. absolutely Susskind Do you see any candidate , do you see any potential opponent off in the distance beyond Hubert Humphrey that could give Bobby Kennedy a good race? Bradlee John ? Susskind Anyone else? Oh, he's a Republican. I'm talking about a Democrat. Speaker ? There is a difference of opinion on that point. Susskind Is there any Democrat building the promises to be a good opponent for Robert Kennedy? Novak Certainly not in sight. Vidal It would have to be somebody, a miracle man suddenly ah Novak But that's a long way off Susskind 1972 isn't that far away.
01:44:14 2631.82	Speaker 4 Novak What's your take in 1964? I'm sorry. 1961. When Jack Kennedy ran, ran for the for the president and was elected president and the corresponding time would be 1953 try to find something about jack kennedy in '53. Speaker 1 Susskind Somebody mentioned, Lindsay was john Lindsay's victory, a big blow or disaster to Robert Kennedy in any important political way. Vidal I don't think he was thrilled by it Bradlee but he also was appalled that it took John Lindsay to get in to the race Vidal Well because the sooner he was in the more quickly you get rid of him. Speaker 3 Vidal. 44:29 no, but I know No, I mean, this is in a non juggler sense. But just as a student of politics, 44:36 Susskind he didn't want to peek too soon. He Speaker 3 Bradlee 44:37 he saw the opening that john Lindsay had and Kennedy's a very good at spotting openings and running for daylight. Susskind Why is it so difficult to like Robert Kennedy. Bradlee I don't think it is. I don't see that it is. For some people, Speaker 1 Susskind In this book, Robert Kennedy at 40. those that that worship him are those people who've worked closely with them and they've come to admire him enormously Speaker 4 Novak Gee I almost got torn up to bits in the '64 campaign just trying to follow on why and they weren't just teenagers. There were a lot of 40ish teenagers who were crawling and crawling after him. I think he's I don't think he's difficult to like
01:45:42 2719.57	Speaker 3 Bradlee 45:19 I think you've sort of made your point, you would be wrong. he left you with it, he is not difficult to like at all. Speaker 2 45:30 just the reverse. Well, no, actually, in a Senatorial Campaign, I'm just reading this book. And I was startled as an antipathy quotient that the pollsters talked about, and he had 36% at the time of the Keating race, and Barry Goldwater had 47%. Goldwater had the worst. That means 36% of those had some strong objection to him, it doesn't mean they didn't vote for him. But that doesn't that does not inconsistent, what's not going to follow in that you like somebody for whom you? Speaker 4 Novak 46:00 I mean, the people who do like him, don't find it hard to like him, it isn't an acquired taste. And it is a it is a spontaneous thing. I don't know if he would I do I feel he couldn't possibly have this kind of following and attraction, if it if it hadn't been for the general Kennedy, the aura and so on, the legacy, Freedman but I think that he would be the first one to agree with you Speaker 1 Susskind Max in the event of a head on tilt between vice president Humphrey and Senator Robert Kennedy, what would be your own feeling? (Max Freedman: I'd go for Humphrey) Why? Speaker 5 Freedman Because I have told him so. And because my standards, I think he would be a better president. Vidal Who do you think would win? Freedman The race being in 1972? Speaker 4 46:52 No, today, if they were matched today? We do. We don't know what we know. Speaker 5 Freedman Well, well if it's match today, well, it can't couldn't happen today. But I expect that the President would throw his support to Humphrey. It would be a bruising race. And I think Humphrey would win. Speaker 1 47:09 Can a candidate going against the incumbent president support of another candidate win? Speaker 5 Freedman Yes, it's hard. This, Bobby Kennedy would be a most unusual candidate with widely diffused support.
01:47:48 2845.59	Speaker 3 Bradlee Wait a minute, in 1971 Lyndon Johnson won't have the clout that he's got now. He's a lame duck president Freedman I think that he will take steps to deal with that. Speaker 4 Novak How do you? How do you beat? How do you beat Bobby Kennedy in in New Hampshire, is the question that goes my mind. Oregon orn Wisconsin or California, short of suspending the Constitution Speaker 2 Vidal Plus they are sending out to people in advance two years before to canvass delegates, which God knows Speaker 4 Novak The thing is Hubert Humphrey and I'm not trying to sound weird. I'm not trying to derogate Humphrey, I think he's a he's a fine man. And he's given great public service. But he has had a terrible time, projecting himself at any place except Minnesota. It's been an utter failure, and he has not succeeded. There's no sign he'll succeed. Speaker 5 48:16 David, if we're going to be realistic about this isn't I think we're all trying to be, it seems to me, that bobby kennedy will be off and running publicly for the presidency after the 1968 convention. He will work during all that four year period. If we are also going to be realistic about it, the vice president will have to be doing something about it. I agree with Gore, this is going to be a situation in which precedence will not apply in all particulars. Speaker 4 Novak Course there's always that again, this is we said it's so uncertain talking about seven years away, but there's always an outside chance that there'll be a republican revival by then. And they may be running for a losing race. I mean, comforting Kennedy.
01:49:28 2946.11	Speaker 2 Gore Vidal How do you stay hot politically, for seven years? Politicians are a bit like actors and popular singers. You can just keep it so long, seven years is a long time to remain you know, without peaking too soon. You got to be lustrous for that tide. Speaker 5 Freedman Quite right Gore, and one adverse Gallup poll is no more significant than one bad dramatic review. Speaker 3 49:28 But if you've got to try and stay illustrous for seven years, you've got to admit that that's a pretty good name to have. Speaker 2 It is but for the public's memory, you know, they may forget what it was they admire the name and there'll be talking about john Lindsay or there'll be more people coming along. Speaker 1 David Susskind I think the final question, the common complaints against Bobby Kennedy are abrasiveness and aggressiveness and ruthlessness have these diminished? Speaker 5 Freedman two most of them date from the 1960 campaign when he was a campaign manager and those attitudes apply to every campaign manager I've ever known were successful. Susskind They are no longer valid as descriptive Speaker 4 Novak I think they're valid, but I think they're I think, I think they're I think they're valid but I think they're, they're meaningless in the sense that that I don't know of many unabrasive and unaggressive or unruthless politicians. I mean, Hubert Humphrey again, who is the nice guy image can be pretty ruthless and can be pretty aggressive. Susskind They're occupational hazards. I guess. Novak I think they are. Susskind We have to pause. We'll be back. Speaker 1 51:21 Max Friedman have one final thing. Is it inevitable that Robert Kennedy will be president the united states? 51:27 No, but it's inevitable that he will try very hard. Speaker 1 51:30 I want to thank our guests and I hope you've enjoyed the discussion. Our guests have been Mr. Max Friedman, was a syndicated columnist for The Chicago Daily News and many other newspapers. Mr. Gore Vidal, former political candidate, novelist, playwright, man of letters, Mr. Benjamin fret. Bradley was the managing editor of The Washington Post, Mr. Robert Novak, who writes a syndicated column with Mr. Evans for the New York Herald Tribune, and many other newspapers. Thank you for being with us. And please join us again next week at the same time. Good night.
01:50:52 3029.96	Commercial break Blank
01:51:44 3081.79	Speaker 1 David Susskind Max Freedman, I have one final thing. Is it inevitable that Robert Kennedy will be president of the united states? Max Freedman No, but it's inevitable that he will try very hard. Speaker 1 David Susskind I want to thank our guests, and I hope you've enjoyed the discussion. Our guests have been Mr. Max Feedman, was a syndicated columnist for The Chicago Daily News and many other newspapers. Mr. Gore Vidal, former political candidate, novelist, playwright, man of letters; Mr. Benjamin Bradlee was the managing editor of The Washington Post; Mr. Robert Novak, who writes a syndicated column with Mr. Evans for the New York Herald Tribune, and many other newspapers. Thank you for being with us. And please join us again next week at the same time. Good night.
01:52:26 3123.61	Show ends. "Open End". WS of guests seated around around a table.
01:52:38 3135.5	reel end.

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