1983TV TALK SHOWS
PART 1: "WE USED TO BE GAY: FORMER HOMOSEXUALS"
WILLIAM ATHERTON, DAVID TWOMEY, REV. WAYNE PLUMSTEAD, BRUCE
BLAUSTEIN, JOSEPH MEGLINO DISCUSS ELY SIEGEL AESTHETIC REALISM.
PART 2: "RESTAURATEURS"
WITH RESTAURANT OWNERS SHELDON TANNEN, LELLO ARPAIA, SIRIO MACCIONI, ROBERT MEYZEN, GIANNI GARAVELLI
(HF-YTV)
WILLIAM ATHERTON, DAVID TWOMEY, REV. WAYNE PLUMSTEAD, BRUCE
BLAUSTEIN, JOSEPH MEGLINO DISCUSS ELY SIEGEL AESTHETIC REALISM.
PART 2: "RESTAURATEURS"
WITH RESTAURANT OWNERS SHELDON TANNEN, LELLO ARPAIA, SIRIO MACCIONI, ROBERT MEYZEN, GIANNI GARAVELLI
(HF-YTV)
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PART 1: "WE USED TO BE GAY: FORMER HOMOSEXUALS"
WILLIAM ATHERTON, DAVID TWOMEY, REV. WAYNE PLUMSTEAD, BRUCE BLAUSTEIN, JOSEPH MEGLINO DISCUSS ELY SIEGEL AESTHETIC REALISM. David Susskind Good evening. I'm David Susskind. Gay Liberation is not gay for all homosexuals. Many of them are unhappy and want to change. My guest tonight say they can a former homosexuals who are now straight. I will tell you how and why. Part Two, five top restaurant owners discuss what it takes to make and keep a restaurant great in the Big Apple will begin after this pause. |
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CUT TO BREAK - BLANK
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BACK IN STUDIO - INTERVIEW BEGINS
David Susskind: My guest tonight are men who used to be homosexual but became heterosexual through a movement called aesthetic realism. Please meet my guest now first. The Reverend Wayne Plumstead is a United Methodist minister in New Jersey. He recently married a former lesbian whom we met through aesthetic realism. David Twomey, is a news researcher at W ABC television in New York. Bruce Blaustein is a sales representative in the garment industry. Joseph Meglino is a computer specialist with the Board of Education in New York. He is married and has a small child. And finally, William Atherton is a well known stage film and television actor. He's currently starring on Broadway in The Caine Mutiny court martial. Now, for people who don't understand aesthetic realism, how did this idea come to you? And how did it succeed in changing your lifestyle from homosexual to heterosexual? William Atherton Well, first of all, I met it through you, Wayne Plumstead met it through you, and 1971 and Joe Meglino. On the David Susskind show in 1971. I was doing house to Blue Leaves at the time in New York. I was homosexual. I never thought there was any way to change. And I just happen because I didn't watch television that awful to see the show that night. And I'm married. And I have a life because of you David Susskind I'm dumbfounded Rev Wayne Plumbstead and everything really that's changed in my life these years are because of that evening, in April of 1971. I had been studying at Princeton Theological Seminary, I was homosexual. I left seminary, I thought I couldn't be a minister that way. Two weeks prior to your show, Mr. SusskindI had tried to end my life. But my father heard your program. He was asleep on the sofa. And he heard something in his sleep about the fact that there was a man in New York City who could change homosexuality. And he thought he had he thought he had just dreamed it in his sleep because he wanted so much for me to be able to change. But we searched the television listings and found out that aesthetic realism, which was founded by Eli Siegel, and taught in New York City could change homosexuality and by metastatic realism, I began to study it in 1971 and changed, I was able to return to seminary to become ordained. And last month I was able to become married. David Susskind Congratulations. How does one change? I mean, in other words, what is aesthetic realism? How does it convert you? Do you? Were you unhappy as a homosexual? David Twomey Well, you're asking a lot of questions. And I think anybody watching the show tonight, they're already quite impressed that there are men here living breathing men who have changed from homosexuality. And maybe the first thing is, I'd like to make it clear to people just what happens in my life. I'm not talking about bisexuality or repression or having thoughts about men while I'm close to a woman, my wife, we got married a year ago Christmas eve because of what I learned from Aesthetic realism with Eli Siegel. I studied it for about nine months, and I knew I had changed the way I met. It was I work at Eyewitness News here in New York City and a phone call came in one day from people who I never met, asking that the press attend a program on the change for homosexuality. I went to the program that night on my own, that response in the newsroom was not good was an ugly response. And has to do with why aesthetic realism why people are wondering tonight. Why haven't they heard about this? Since she told people across the country in 71? What's going on in the interim? Why are they hearing about it for the first time. And it has a lot to do with what's gone on with the press. I knew in about nine months, I had changed the intense driving feelings I had for men stopped. It was gradually over nine months, but it stopped. And I began to have feelings about the world and women in a new way. With the result that in about nine months I knew that I had feelings, emotions, thoughts about women that I could respect myself for and was the the pleasure including bodily response that I wanted and as a child and as I was growing up felt that would never have in this life I would not have and what how was the question? Joseph Meglino And what we all learned from aesthetic realism and Mr. Siegel is that homosexuality arose from arises from a way of seeing the world. It's an incomplete way of seeing the world. Today I'm married, and I have a small son, and I could never have feelings for women. The only reason I have the life I have now is because of what I learned because of what I studied aesthetic realism says homosexuality. It's an incomplete way of seeing the world and In principle, it says, homosexuality arises from content of the world. It's not essentially a sexual question. So it's an ethical question. Rev Wayne Plumbstead For instance, one of the questions that Eli Siegel asked me was, do you suppose Wayne Plumstead, that the mind of women is the only work God made in vain? And when he asked me that question, I realized Yes, yes, I do have that kind of contempt for women. 1000 things flashed into my mind, like how I would go into bookstores, and look for books to read. And if I saw a book was read by a woman, I would put it down, I would just assume it was shallow. It couldn't possibly meet the that the depths of me. And I also learned from Mr. Siegel and from aesthetic realism David Susskind he's deceased now Rev Wayne Plumbstead Yes, yes Mr Seigel died in November of 1978. And I learned from him that this attitude toward women, this attitude of scoring them and looking down on them and feeling simply, they weren't worthy of one, not worthy even to elicit a physic physical response from one began with my mother and how I saw her. But as a little boy, my mother made such a fuss over me. And I can remember, for instance, sitting in a big stuffed, I'm chair in front of the TV set, while my mother ran my bathwater and had a thermometer and put it in to make sure it was the exact temperature that I wanted. And I can remember loving, that kind of approval and adoration that I got from her, but also thinking what a dope, women are so feeble minded. And it was such a conquest made of women so early, that I came to use that in my own mind to scorn all women. And that's why as a homosexual, though, there was an intense kind of pleasure. I didn't like myself. William Atherton That's a very big thing, because Eli Siegel was the first person to see that the cause of homosexuality is contempt. David Susskind is it self contempt. William Atherton Its contempt in a world outside of oneself. Say Eli Siegel saw that sex was worked. Joe Meglino said sex is not the fundamental situation, the fundamental situation in every person, is how they how that person sees the whole world. And if everything outside of one's self David Twomey Aesthetic realism proves Freud was wrong, because a person's sex life does not begin and how they see men and women doesn't begin with sex. It begins in how you see the whole world. William Atherton I can give you an example of this. It had to do with a class in 1976 that I attended with Eli Siegel. And he spoke to me about something I felt that I was born homosexual, I felt that my feelings were so early that way. I just thought it was organic to me. And Mr. Siegel asked me where I felt first had my first feelings for men. And I had my first homosexual experience when I was four, when I was four years old, and Mr. Siegel asked me about it, and he said, How did you feel at the time, and it was very vivid to me. I said, I felt it was bad. And he said, Well, why did you feel that was bad? And I said, because it was secret. He said, That doesn't necessarily mean that it's that it's bad, because it's secret. I mean, if if the Nazis come through the town, and you're hiding Jews, and you say, you know, they're no Jews here, that's a secret that's on the side of goodwill. He said, There's something else. And I said, Well, what is that? And he said, for 1000s of years, and Eli Siegel was the first person to see this. For 1000s of years, civilization has agreed upon one thing, whatever you call it, the world outside of yourself deserve something. We are born with an ethical unconscious. That's the thing that is organic. And you felt that because you felt your relation to the world was warped by what you did. And he articulated for me, a feeling I had had for 20 years, never would have been articulated. We're not for Aesthetic Realism. And it was it was a feeling like I I'm not this way. Instead, it was so wonderful and beautiful about the subject because it says he has a superstructure. It's something on top of a real person self. Bruce Blaustein This is revolutionary that an attitude towards the world in itself can can affect a state of mind and that if the attitude towards the world is criticized, and I heard criticism, in aesthetic realism, consultations, that we can change that homosexuality can change that depression can change that so many mental disorders today can change. And I was a psychological counselor from 1976 to 1978. I have a master's degree at NYU. And also I did counseling market, Long Island Jewish hillside Medical Center. And in from 1976 to 1978. I was homosexual. I was going to the baths going to the piers going to the docks looking for sex. I was driven at night, and during the day, I was trying to be useful to my patients. I was trying to be useful to people and the the the two cells in me of trying to be useful during the day and trying to have a good effect on people and then at night feeling driven that I had to have sex with men. I also went to psychoanalysis. I was in psychoanalysis for two years at the Karen, one eye clinic right here in New York City. But I never in two and a half years of psychoanalysis. I never heard criticism, I never heard that I had an attitude towards the world that was affecting my homosexuality. David Twomey And also you never heard point blank that homosexuality can definitely change. David Susskind that I've never heard of. I mean, it's an eye opener in 1971. I was stunned to discover these man's had become heterosexual and that, and it continues to be quite incredible. David Twomey It's wonderful. David Susskind we're coming right back, David, don't lose your thought. We'll be back in a minute. |
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INTERVIEW RESUMES
David Susskind David Toomey, you wanted to say something? Bruce Blaustein Well, what I was commenting on in about what Bruce said was that people go to therapy for various reasons. Some people want to change for homosexuality, they don't know there is a definite way to change. And one of the things that went when I heard about esthetic reslism when that phone call in the newsroom, the woman who was calling whoever she was, says men and women can change from homosexuality, people have a right to know it. And what we're talking about here, our experience has been in terms of obviously male homosexuality, and there's a difference between lesbianism and what causes it as Eli Siegel, the founder of aesthetic realism, understood, and home and male homosexuality. So we want to make it clear that we're talking about our experiences to male homosexuality Joseph Meglino say the aesthetic realism foundation. David Susskind Look gentlemen, Hold on one minute, you keep mentioning aesthetic realism and the late Eli Siegel. You were a functional homosexuals, you had jobs and you had family and all of them now, what is it?Aesthetic Realism. That made you change. What does it do to you? Bruce Blaustein Alright, so what aesthetic realism is, it is a big study, but it can be put in one sentence. And there are three aspects to it. Aesthetic realism is a way of seeing the whole world as an education teaching a person how to see the whole world as a means of liking themselves. That's new. There are three aspects to that, of learning how to like yourself by liking the outside world. The first aspect is that the ELI Siegel saw that the deepest desire of every person China or here is to like the world. Second, the way to like the world, and the things in it from people to objects is by seeing that all of reality, including a cup of water is an aesthetic oneness of opposites, hardness and softness, this Styrofoam cup is hard, it's firm and soft too the way a person is hard and soft. The thing that interferes and is the worst thing in man man's greatest danger that interferes with man's liking the world is the desire to have content to build yourself up by quickly finding flaws elsewhere. Gossip, I saw that was one of the first places I saw this is true, you'd see that talking to an officer at the supermarket, the mocking that can go on and people think it's ordinary, but the desire to have contempt is the root cause of homosexuality, and ruins marriages and makes for boredom. Joseph Meglino And it's why we changed because the person's deepest desire is to like the world. Homosexuality stopped them from liking the world. David Susskind Alright, we'll stop a minute when you were homosexuals. Will you dissatisfied with yourself? And did you view the world with contempt? Joseph Meglino Yeah, when I started I very much. I was driven on the one hand to go after men and to get the pleasure of sex. But at the same time, I didn't like myself. There was a shame I felt. And as time went on, I felt more and more uncomfortable with other people. What I learned through Aesthetic Realism and also, I felt the world was passing me by I was a physics major in college. When I met aesthetic realism, I found it safe to be in a world of numbers, I felt very uncomfortable with people. What I saw is that I had a very narrow way of seeing the world. I didn't feel the world the world could add to me. I didn't David Susskind Is that because the world tends to scorn or and or persecute the homosexual. Joseph Meglino I've thought about this and And I've seen that it was something in me, what I've come to see is that homosexuality was against something in me my desire to like the world. It didn't have me like other things more. William Atherton Why do you relate to that? What I said about myself when I was four, I did not have a sociological awareness that the world was against me. And that was repressing me or when I was four, I didn't have that context. It came from me. It came from my beginning feeling. It did not come from the outside just so that way. And that is the thing you say, Bruce Blaustein See, people aren't conscious that the deepest desires to like, it's not conscious, but when you study aesthetic realism, you see it David Susskind I'm just curious, when you were a homosexual, did you have contempt for the outside world? Rev Wayne Plumbstead Well, because it was but the thing and aesthetic realism is revolutionary. Eli Siegel saw this for the first time he described not only homosexual people but all people and aesthetic realism, it's for everybody. He said, the nature of the self is dual. Yourself myself, the self of every person who's watching this program, there is a desire in man, its deepest desire to like the world, to respect it, to feel the way I see what's outside myself, I like looks good. To me, that's our deepest desire Rev Wayne Plumbstead and not true as a homosexual, Rev Wayne Plumbstead but also no But also that's a desire, to have contempt for the world, to scorn things to look down on them to build ourselves up. By making less about the things Bruce Blaustein you'll feel important by I know that, before I changed, I would feel very, very important at work and in my social life by making less of people and this contempt is, could be the most everyday thing of like walking down contempt, let's say David Twomey How did you see contempt in homosexuality. Bruce Blaustein Well, one, one thing I saw very, very clearly is that the men I was with, I didn't care about them, really, I wanted to see I wanted to feel the effect I had on them. What was Bruce blaustein's effect on them, I wasn't concerned about how they feel how they can feel to themselves. And as I started changing, and as I became deeper about all people, my homosexual, homosexual feelings started stopping. And this is a big thing. In the change from homosexuality. I remember that. When I went with the first few months, I started studying aesthetic realism, I met a man. And I was with him and we had sex. And the sex was good. It was intense. And we decided the next night we were going to go and have sex again. And I started thinking of the principles of aesthetic realism, what Mr. Siegel said is true about people that the deepest desires to like the world. And as I was talking to this man in Los Angeles, we had dinner, and I started asking, I, you know, we were gonna go and have sex. But I said to myself, What is this person's mother? Like? What was this person? Like, when he was four years old? What does he feel about? Books? What does he feel about his work? And the deeper I thought about him, and how he was a self to himself with real feelings, and as I gave him feelings, we, we started talking more and more, and then I couldn't have sex. It was an organic, physical feeling that I could not have sex with. It's man, it's like, David Twomey if you once you see, in terms of myself, I was involved with a man for four years, and there was some experiences on the site to going to bars and that kind of thing. But as a person sees as a homosexual sees if he studies and he sees how content isn't homosexuality, you can't like yourself for it. You can't you can't respect yourself for it. And as you see, there's a different kind of pleasure David Susskind in the entire time of your homosexuality. You didn't like yourself? Is that true? Bruce Blaustein Well, that's a pretty broad thing to say. No, no, no, no, it's it's not black and white. There was a discomfort with it. Because I couldn't respect David Susskind because nothing because it was found all the questions, why Bruce Blaustein wouldn't the homosexual I think one thing to ask is, are homosexuals proud of how they use another man? Or are they not proud of it? I remember I was asked one question in a consultation, which is an hour discussion with three members of the aesthetic realism faculty, one question I was asked, they said, As you approach the man, his name was, Larry, as you approach Larry, and have an effect on him. Do you respect him more or less for the effect you have on him? And do you respect yourself for it? Meanwhile, there's a physical delight in homosexuality, but what you think of yourself for it is something else. And the difference now is that, well, it's like when I have my arms around my wife, and I'm close with her. It's I feel intimate, and warm. And I feel the pleasure of respect that this because I feel she stands for a world that can like more, and I never had that emotion and it searches through my body, and to be able to be intimate with a woman and talk while you're being close. And I'm saying something very candid, but still trying to be discreet, but is an emotion when you change your homosexuality because you change the way you see the world and only static realism can teach this how you have a different kind of emotion, and it's a pleasure and respect. What are you to knock out? Bruce Blaustein Mr Susskind What do you think of that? David Susskind I think it's really, a stunning piece of information David Twomey it's unusual. David Susskind We'll be back in a minute. |
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INTERVIEW RESUMES
David Susskind I wanted to ask you, if women if lesbians have the same ability through aesthetic realism to change from the lesbian to heterosexual Rev Wayne Plumbstead I would like to talk about that because it happens that my wife RoseMary Plumstead, who teaches in the New York City school system was lesbian and through her study of aesthetic realism. She changed and we were able to be married. David Twomey I was at his wedding Rev Wayne Plumbstead I was so moved as Mr. Twomey was speaking because I Feel that feeling. That's what I felt, as I'm married now, and I feel it's what every man in America can feel. And I was thinking of it the other day, Mr. Susskind I'm 34 years old. For the first time in my life, I've had sex with a woman. And the feeling I can't describe it. It's so different than what I felt in homosexuality. Because I remember, as I was close to a man, afterwards, there would be a tremendous sense of repulsion, and wanting to push myself away. And I remember I would, I would feel unclean in some way. Sometimes I go to the bathroom and have to take a shower. But as I've been close to my wife, I felt it's been so continuous with everything else in a day, I felt proud, I felt clean. And it has to do with a difference in responses to the whole world. And one of the things one of the differences too, as I would be close to a man, the thought was about me My pleasure what I wanted to get, and I was aware that as my wife and I are close, I'm thinking about her I'm affected by her who she is what she feels to herself what she's feeling at that moment. It's all the difference in the world and every man every man can have that David Susskind Are you, do You mean that any and all homosexuals if they have that contempt for the world and or self contempt, they could through aesthetic realism returned to heterosexual Bruce Blaustein Absolutely. any man it's an amazing thing that there's an education that can promise that has got the living bodies and there are many more men who would be who would eagerly literally flying from parts of the country to be on a national TV show and talk about Joseph Meglino And now they are having Aesthetic realism consultations by phone all over the country David Susskind Let me ask you. Do you take courses, or do you see a single teacher, x times a week Joseph Meglino The Aestetic Foundation is located at 141 Greene Street in Manhattan. Let me give the phone number it's 777-4490 area code 212 Joseph Meglino We'll come to that at the end of the program Joseph Meglino But the Aesthetic Realism foundation is individual consultations given but also their classes in poetry, in art, in anthropology, in dance. Also, the New York City Board of the New York City Board of Education is sponsoring an in service course for teachers. The aesthetic realism of Eli Seigel teaching method Aesthetic realism. It's an education it's for all people how it sees homosexuality is one aspect of it. But it's taught to wives to parents, I'm a parent aesthetic realism is useful to me in learning how to be a good parent to my son, David, who's three and a half years old. Now Joseph Meglino see one thing that teachers New York City school teachers, and this is the biggest area for the educational system of the country. What works in New York works elsewhere. Teachers are now learning from aesthetic realism as teaching method, that the children they teach the most important thing in their lives is how they see the whole world. Eli Siegel saw that'll affect how they see mathematics, how they'll see their mothers. It'll think how they see reading his mother, William Atherton there is a teacher just in relation to what David Twomey is saying there is a teacher in the new Patricia Martone in the New York City school system was said since studying aesthetic realism, there has never been a child she could not teach to read. Joseph Meglino contempt interferes with learning. David Susskind And when in doing the homework pertinent to this program. Mothers seemed to be a key figures in the homosexual attitude, Bruce Blaustein but so kind in terms of happiness David Susskind William Atherton said he had a I'm sorry, it was Reverend Plumbsted said that he had an adoring mother who would draw his bath and make sure the temperature was right. That kind of mother contributed to your homosexuality because you thought women were stupid. Rev Wayne Plumbstead Yes. But it's very important to say that aesthetic realism does not blame the mother as to why a person is homosexual. It's how the son sees the mother and uses the the adoration that the son gets also the David Susskind similarly a neglectful mother, on the other part of the equation could be equally responsible for a homosexual Bruce Blaustein No, no person in this country is homosexual unless he's had a mother who was silly about him. And the boy felt consciously and unconsciously, I wasn't just conscious that my mother was silly about me. A mother's got to be that way towards the sun. And then the other thing is, and this from Freud, to Bieber to socretes The major psycho analysts of the time have not seen this what eli Seagull saw that the desire for contempt in any person, but in a child who's going to become homosexual uses this excessive silliness of the mother and we can give detail that was my mother's favorite and things went on to make less of the mother and she because she stands for the outside world. The parents aesthetic realism, say, are the first two representatives of reality that a child meets, it's logical to make an attitude that as a boy sees the mother being this way and feels it says Do I thought my way my mother was with me it was just my do and there's nothing that I could do wrong. I would brighten her day. And as that went on, I felt that my mother there was something dull about her. I had a hip in my pocket, so to speak, and I wasn't interested in her. And through that, as you have contempt for the way the mother shows love to the child, you begin to have contempt for womankind, the mother standing for it and for the world. So that in effect, you could buoyed by that Mr. Siegel said to the first man to change for homosexuality. Sheldon Kranz, who was one of the men who was on this program in 1971. He died two years ago, his wife continues to teach aesthitic realism is part of the faculty really Ann Fielding, Mr. Siegel said to him that the approval was such and he agreed with this and you could cite instances with the approval. Sheldon Kranz got as a child had the result by the age of six, he felt women were just though, they just seem Joseph Meglino To complete the picture, a man can be seen as stronger, harder to conquer. And that's why a man will go after other men David Twomey They move on to the other territory Joseph Meglino A woman is a push over Rev Wayne Plumbstead Repeat the victory that you've had with a mother with a man and Mr. Segal. He's described this situation with a mother so accurately as a drawing contempt. And it's a dual situation where you're getting tremendous flattery from a person and able even as you're getting that flattery to look down on them, and to have contempt for them. And you want to repeat that victory. . Bruce Blaustein You should with them give an example. You mentioned David Susskind Is father in the family equation, his father? it's not countervailing is he? William Atherton Well, Mr. Siegel once said that a child who becomes homosexual, quite early becomes quite adept in the early politics of love. And for myself, I saw that there was probably there were, there was trouble between my mother and father. And it seemed Bruce Blaustein kind of disappointment. That's why the mother always turns to the son William Atherton my mother was an accomplished person, but I had the feeling very early that anything else would be dropped for me. And I saw that she did not care for my father so much. And I wanted to be Mr. Siegel put it very bluntly on the winning team. And he once said, did I feel I could play on my mother's emotions and feelings like on an instrument? And was I really interested in what she felt? Or was there something more prudent and strategic? And so that there's this interplay of politics, where one feels a homosexual man feels he can fool women pretty easily. David Twomey he can charm them William Atherton He can charm them. And it was one of the things in consultation struck me so much. It said Mr. Atherton, do you know the difference between charm and kindness? And it struck me very much Bruce Blaustein were you your mother's confident like, William Atherton I was my mother's confidant Bruce Blaustein I was my mother's confidant, I didn't call it that. I didn't know that. In my case, it's most of the time is that the mother but it also could be an older sister or grandmother or some monumental female that a child meets first and is growing up. And with me it was my grandmother. And I remember my grandmother saying to me, you're the only one that understands me. You're the kind this bumbler, I love you more than anything else. And here I was, I was three years old. And you can imagine that the importance and the approval that a three year old could feel to have this grown woman, make him make this person feel that he's the most important deep person in the whole wide world. And this is what I felt. But at the same time, I felt she was stupid. I felt that her excessive devotion and approval of me, made me see all women, as foolish over me and I at a very early age made a decision that a women were pushover. So what happened is I made a choice. This is what's important and aesthetic realism, Mr. Siegel was the first person to see this, that an early age, we that were homosexual make a very early choice with that we are going to see the world see our mothers or grandmothers whatever, as way of seeing women, and I've moved on David Twomey The choice is respect Bruce Blaustein And I moved on to God's other sex Rev Wayne Plumbstead One of the things that happens with a father and happened with my father is I always thought my father was he was more sensible than my mother. He didn't give me the kind of utter approval that my mother gave me, which, which already made me feel he was less warm to me. But also he saw the team, my mother and I were in he felt pretty early. I preferred my mother and my mother preferred me and he withdrew and got hurt. I didn't see it as me doing anything to him. I saw it as him being cold to me. And then my first aesthetic realism consultation. I was asked Do you think that your father was hurt? It was a revolution to me. I never thought about what my father felt David Susskind The answer was yes he was hurt Rev Wayne Plumbstead I always thought he was just mean to me. David Susskind Let's just pause it right here. We have to pause again. Someday there'll be a world with no pause. |
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INTERVIEW CONTINUES
David Susskind Are you suggesting that any practicing homosexual today is incomplete or has a negative view of the world and himself and his probably unconsciously or subconsciously desirous of changing, Rev Wayne Plumbstead yet we are Joseph Meglino most feel they don't know that they can change before I met aesthetic realism I couldn't picture having feelings for a woman being able it was so unreal to me William Atherton seems academic, why bother because if you feel you cannot change why torture yourself David Twomey You make the best of the situation, you do the best you Rev Wayne Plumbstead can see. And I want to say Eli Siegel was so kind in the way he saw homosexuality, he didn't see it as a heinous sin, divorced from everything else. He simply said, it's one among many ways that a person is incomplete and has an incomplete emotion about the whole world, you leave out half the world when you have an incomplete emotion and it hurts that person's life. And the reason a person should want to change is for themselves because there's a fuller emotion about the whole world that they're looking for. And that's their own life. Joseph Meglino That's the central situation, Eli Siegel said, every person has to make sense of the world. And in his book, self and world, he explains the self and the world that we're all in that question how to make sense of taking care of ourselves, liking ourselves, and at the same time, being fair to the whole world. Last question every person has. But Bruce Blaustein I'm part of the faculty as well as Reverend Plumstead and Joseph Magdaleno, who teach men how to change homosexuality. We talked to the man who was calling from Pennsylvania, who said that he had heard about aesthetic realism through someone else studying there and people study throughout the country in various parts of the country by telephone, the telephone consultations and people study here attending programs and classes and workshops in New York City. This man said that when he first heard about aesthetic realism, person talking to him said, are you happy being homosexual? Because the numbers of people who are homosexual does not ensure that when is happy, the man insisted At first he was happy. Now he's beginning to study a study brought about it. The reason is the same reason though it's in different words than me. I thought something was dry. That's the word I used. At the end of the four years with the lover that I had the man that I was involved with. He was in one hand, David Susskind has he ever changed? David Twomey Did he go to aesthetic realism. No, he didn't. He said that it shook him up the fact that he knew he could change and now he had a real choice wasn't genetic. So wasn't chemistry wasn't hormones. That's the good news. That one can actually learn things. And the self that one begins with as a baby can come to be and as much as why. And it's very important, because people are asking that question that you're asking in different ways. They're wandering around the country, why am I hearing this for the first time? And it has to do with the buttons that we wear many David Susskind Victim of the press, the press been persecuting you? David Twomey Well in a way, David...People are wondering, they're hearing from us that there were men, other men, not us. Other men talking about changing from homosexuality through aesthetic realism. On your show in 1971 12 years later, there are other men who are talking about it now. And there are parents there are young people, Milwaukee, all kinds of cities, wondering why haven't I heard about this before? The Press Why? And the obvious question is, why hasn't the press, newspapers, radio magazines? Why don't they follow up on what you grew? David Susskind Why do you think they haven't? David Twomey Because there is, and it's, in a way, it's a shocking thing to say to America, there is a boycott of the education of aesthetic realism. It's not a movement. It's an education, we learn things. And only 1/3 of the people studying aesthetic realism study for the purpose of changing David Susskind But has Denis ever investigated. Aesthetic realism. William Atherton I can say something about this because I've seen it pretty much close hand. I have seen there is enormous respect in the press for Eli Siegel. I think it can be called love. I think they are I know, they are very aware of the power of aesthetic realism as as thought and the power of Eli Siegel and the greatness of his mind. That is undeniable. With that respect, there is also a huge resentment. Because all of those people are uncomfortable with their great respect. I felt this. Everybody here has felt this aesthetic realism is new in the history of the philosophy of the world. And Sheldon Krantz set on your program in 1971. He said Eli seigel should be teaching America. Yes, that's still true. Eli Siegel should be teaching everybody, everybody all over the world. Bruce Blaustein And he's saying something very big. But the question is, why would William Atherton noted actors you said, say that opinion of Eli Siegel, there's many things to say about it. But this matter alone of respect and contempt, as the key things that work in every person and determine the life of a person, much less the specific thing we're discussing homosexuality, if that is seen and studied, marriages will change. Literally wars will not occur if the economy will not be in the agony that it's in now with so many people unemployed, in contempt alone, William Atherton and it has to do also with the fact that aesthetic realism has to be respected. Every person in every profession has something new to learn from aesthetic realism and that does not flatter the ego David Twomey people have gotten angry people have gotten very, very I've seen it. I've seen it where I work on I'm really on it. I've been at ABC for five years. I heard about aesthetic realism in the newsroom. In a way. It's a vivid example. And I had suspicion that I never should have had, because it should have been reported in the interim of all these years, much less since 1941. It's not new, per se. In the five years people I work with writers, producers, assignment editors have seen how my life has changed. They I've talked with people there. And it's like it took five years. till recently, Eyewitness News did a report as news about aesthetic realism, and it affected many, many people in the area. I'm very glad it happened. But why would it take so long? William Atherton I know everybody wants to say so just very, very quickly. Because being in my profession I've seen that esthetic realism had enormous impact, since 1955, particularly with his beauty is all beauty the making one of opposites. It has been used, it has been used, it has been switched around words have been changed. So it's not to credit Eli Siegel as the source of it, David Susskind Now why would anybody find him hunting specter trouble Joseph Meglino because they stay William Atherton The beauty of Eli Siegel is he came to a body of thought that it's transmissible aesthetic realism is alive. Bruce Blaustein I never studied with Eli Siegel. But we changed. We started with the faculty room, the education through the thought that Eli Siegel came to we never studied with Mr. Siegel. And we were able to change just as well. Rev Wayne Plumbstead I just want to say this, Mr. Siegel said this himself, he described it. He said that this matter of respecting some of respect, it's the most frightening thing in the world. And the idea that I should respect something outside myself so much and without limit when I don't respect myself, the setting itself says the hell I will. And if I if I do, it should be accompanied with all the press notices and all the porticos and there is the sheer terror of respecting something so much as people respect Eli Siegel and aesthetic realism William Atherton It's unnecessarily. So unnecessarily unnecessary, David Susskind unnecessary. I want to thank you for coming in being candid and forthcoming. David Twomey Can I say I'd like to make an appeal to the sake of American, I'm going to know not that. But it's like, I'm I'm married. And I know what it's like to be homosexual. I know what it's like to be married now and to care for a woman. I hope that after this show tonight that the media makes reports and finds out about esthetic realism for the sake of the American people. Let's not let this go on. David Susskind Okay, and if you are interested, esthetic realism foundation is at 141 Green Street 141 Green Street, New York, New York 10012. And they can be phone at the number 212-777-4490. That's aesthetic realism foundation 141 Green Street. Thank you. Thank you very interesting time. Be back. |
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AESTHETIC REALISM FOUNDATION CONTACT INFO
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PART 1 ENDS
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PART 2: "RESTAURATEURS"
WITH RESTAURANT OWNERS SHELDON TANNEN, LELLO ARPAIA, SIRIO MACCIONI (OWNER OF LE CIRQUE), ROBERT MEYZEN, GIANNI GARAVELLI David Susskind My next guests are five in number. And they have one thing in common. They all each of them. OWN a great, great restaurant in New York City. And they know that a great restaurant is a work of art, but you have to maintain it that requires hard work and absolute dedication. Please meet them now. First, Sheldon Tannem is one of the directors and owners of 21 which has been a great New York institution for over 50 years. Lello Arpaia is owner of Lello an Italian restaurant that has been acclaimed one of the best in New York City. Robert Meyzen Jr. is co owner with his father Robert Sr. and partner Roger Fessaguet of la carrabelle, one of Manhattan's fine French restaurants as well as like Cremiere in Bronxville, New York. Gianni Garavelli is owner of Bravo Gianni a new and excellent Italian restaurant that has deservedly become very popular very quickly. Trained in Europe. Sirio Maccioni is the owner of the incomparable the Cirque, one of New York's most elegant French restaurants. Gentlemen, what is your blood pressure? The reason I ask you that is I'm in a high pressure profession. You operate with enormous tension in your restaurants, with your staffs, with your chefs and all that. What is your blood pressure? Gianni Garavelli normal? Excellent. My staff don't give me problem. I feel very comfortable. And for me every night a party David Susskind every night a party Sirio your blood pressure normal Sirio Maccioni is normal. Some of my staff has a very high David Susskind some of your staff. Sheldon Tannen Sheldon Tannen Fortunately, mine is lower than normal. And it's what keeps me high. I encouraged myself to build up a little bit of tension, but I keep it I keep everything under control because of my low blood pressure. David Susskind You men are driving me mad Lello Arpaia Lello Arpaia mine is normal too. But I've worked very hard for it to keep it that way. Because there is problems, crisis that happen every day. And it's like a puzzle that I have to put together every day. It's like a battlefield. David Susskind Robert Meyzen Robert Meyzen I'm going to save you. I watched minw daily I go to a doctor about a year and a half ago, I'm 31 years old, I suffered a mild mild stroke. And just to show you the pressure, now, it's under control. But it's something that you have to watch. You're constantly being thrown things problems. Some people I'm I tend to be more of a showman I like to get involved not only with what's on the plate, but with the clientele. And so, David Susskind you know, tend to be sure you are shown. I mean, you may be restaurant tours, you three years ago, were on the show. With the great Maitre D's you are now an owner. Gianni Garavelli And I'm very happy about I worked very hard to make that possible. I have been encouraged by many people, they push me literally to do it. And I did it for two reason. First, I had to fulfill something left behind by my father, which had a great talent, but circumstance didn't make it happen. I did it. I am happy. And I think it's a beautiful life. David Susskind Second circumstance. Two reasons. Gianni Garavelli You said the war came, the war came things change. David Susskind Korea, you know, now Gianni Garavelli I'm talking about the circumstance of my father, Grenada. In fact, he happened to open a restaurant in Genoa, where I born and the restaurant last one day, it was dead vomit. Blow up. That since then, that guy, the man he said no more. I wasn't meant to be I will be literally for the rest of my life. In fact, the my restaurant my staff, I have a fella Mario that he used to work with him Allah Camus and Genoa 35 year four years ago, and now he's working for me David Susskind this question, I mean, you're 50 years old, you I think would be 10. Thank you. Thank you. No, I don't know your restaurant. 21 were 60 years. 60 years. Oh, Sheldon Tannen my God founded in 1922. Actually, it's our 61st or 61st year. David Susskind And Lello is Lello Arpaia well, it's only four years old. But I've had another restaurant, which I still own and my brother is running it in Long Island for the last 14 years. I opened it at the age of 27. David Susskind And, sir, you are you seem to have been part of the New York elegant restaurant forever. But it's only 10 years Sirio Maccioni 10 years maybe because we knew each other from the colony and that was a demo he is making long David Susskind Sirio was a waiter, a busboy, a waiter, maitre d captain, everything the Oh come, Sheldon Tannen I've watched sirios progress. For from the time he was at the colony, and Sirio and knows the respect that I've had for him, going back to that period. And at one time, Syrio and I were talking about the possibility during a period and when he was in between and waiting to see whether his restaurant, the circ was going to open. I had offered Syrio the opportunity if he wanted to come with us, and he told me what he had been planning to do. And at that time, I said, Syrio if there's anything I can do to help you, I want to do anything because you're a great talent. And New York deserves a restaurant tour like him and and he's come right to where he should be right up on top, David Susskind the circ is a monument and all you really want our works about I want to say something about the five of you. I've known you a long time. varying times, but a long time. And you've got one thing in common and it's do your restaurants, you our class people and your restaurants, our class places. Gianni Garavelli There is only one thing to say. We must thank you David Susskind But what isn't that where it begins? And maybe end Lello Arpaia yes, it begins with a dream in. In my opinion. What happened is that for many, many years, David we have had Italian restaurants publicized always as a mom and pop operation always the red and white checkered tablecloth, whereas the French always projected the restaurants on a high level, serious restaurants. And that always disturbed me because the sooner regional why an Italian restaurant cannot be created of the same caliber of the French restaurants and that's what I set out to do. And I think I've created that the little restaurants today. David Susskind You Sure have. And Robert your an institution la Caravelle. Robert Meyzen Well, La Caravelle was opened in 1960 by dad by 23. So and where I am like at the Cremiere that restaurant opened and at its present location and banks Ville in 1948 was a cremiere started by Antoine de Lee in the 30s. And the people I get the Cremiere now are the clientele that we all enjoy. But who Yes and want to get out of New York and go to the country. But it's it's a different breed of restaurant I get so many Europeans that come to the Cremiere Where at the Carvavelle I don't see that many. I mean, I think maybe you might enjoy that at the la carvavelle is an old restaurant, in a lot of in a lot of ways. It's a it's a, it's a classic. It's a it's timeless in a sense, whereas the cemiere is is something new, where me being 31 people, my age are a little older, are going, let's go out to the country, let's go out and eat. Let's get out of the city. David Susskind Customer idiosyncrasies. They must be tough. Sheldon Tannen We have so many David I. But there's one story that I'd like to relate. This is a true story that happened at 21 Many years ago. I was it was after lunch, I was sitting, I was on duty accepting charges as we have management, look at every charge that is signed by anybody. So that in case we have missed somebody coming in, by the time they leave, we can say goodbye to them and recognize them by name. Well, this customer sign the cheque, I looked at him I didn't know him, looked at the signature. I couldn't read it. I sent it back to him and said, May we please have spelling of his name. And he said nobody ever questions my name and with that I asked him if he had a charge account. And he said no, but open one. And I said I'm sorry, if you'd like to have an account with us, we'd appreciate your sending us a letter and we'll be happy to have correspondence with you. With that he took out an accordion card accordion case of credit cards. And at that time, we didn't accept credit cards we do today. And I said I'm sorry, sir. But we'd appreciate your paying this by cash, which he did. And that was a three o'clock in the afternoon. And at seven o'clock, I had a phone call from a mutual friend of this gentleman's and mind saying that this man was so upset that he couldn't sign a 21 today that he went down to the Federal Reserve Board and he drew out a $10,000 bill. And he said he's determined that before today is over, you're going to accept his signature. And now in order to get a $10,000 bill from Federal Reserve, you have to sign all sorts of applications, you have to appear in person, his bank had to be checked. And this had to be done before the four o'clock closing that came eight o'clock in came was party of four with this reservation. And I have gone upstairs to our vault which we had in those days, which we don't have anymore. But we used to give away silver dollars, which we ordered from the bank. And we used to give them away and change. But in order to get them from the bank, we ordered them 1000 at a time. So we had a big bag which had four or 500 silver dollars in it very heavy. We also still give away fresh, clean $1 bills, which you have to order from the bank in a bundle of 4000. And we give away between 15,000 and 15 to 1600 of these bills a day. And so we always had an extra 4000 on hand to assure ourselves having those clean bills. So we had this one bundle of bills plus this bag, and I got the cashier to give me a few $20 bills and $10 bills, got a large platter with a terrain top over it and had it setting sitting on a rolling wagon. I told the waiter that when the customer asked for his check to please let me know that he was that the check was coming. We had the wagon sitting there. He presented the check. The man took out the $10,000 bill very casually. And we rolled over the wagon. The captain lifted it and said Your change sir. Now of course there wasn't $10,000 This man he his face dropped. I looked at his he looked at our mutual friend knew that he had been betrayed. But we did let him sign that evening. And he has become a good customer ever since. Now, he's no longer with us. But I told a story on the air in Houston about a year ago. And this man's widow heard the story, wrote me a letter and told me that to his dying day he kept that $10,000 bill in his pocket and kept telling people about that story. David Susskind YOUR Story,Sirio was the most outrageously? Sirio Maccioni No, everybody, everybody in Lello Arpaia Tennessee with me used to sign the American Express upside down constantly and where the problems with the down way upside down. Robert Meyzen I have a story it doesn't have as much class as the first one. But there was a party of six that came into the Crimea and this was a Saturday night and the hostess of the party I knew and the other people I didn't know. And naturally I think we all be sympathetic when the photo is comes out, and you're ready to serve. The ladies always get up and go to the ladies room, plastic and this case, gentleman's got up and went to the lady. One of the gentlemen disappeared. So we went looking around and naturally went into the men's room when looking for him there. The star the star door was closed, looked underneath no legs, nothing can be there. So we went outside quickly in the parking lot. We called Mr. so in so Mr so in so Are you there? hoping he had got not got no. Finally, the meal continued without him. And what had happened is that gentleman had decided he had too much to drink went into the stall in the men's room locked it sat down on the on the John I put his feet up on the wall and fell asleep. We found him four or five hours later. David Susskind That's funny. How how do you keep your clientele from over booking? In other words, suppose all of 21 all of the circs patrons and they are endless and wonderful people. They all wanted to come on the same night or at the same nine o'clock civic you have two sittings, I guess well, no, you have three you have supper guests, right? What would you do? And Gianni Garavelli I usually say to them the timer unless they have to come try to avoid Oh, yeah, of course sometime you create enemy out of your good friend. No. Eight o'clock you are booked. Somebody called you always have one of two table in case right? Yeah, David Susskind I'll tell you one night. Some idiot acquaintance not a friend. Acquaintance said I want to go to Gianni''s so well it's nine o'clock. That person said I don't care. That's where I want to go. And I called him and he said I would try to avoid Well yeah, I will try to avoid the 930 you there's never a safe tables right for Sheldon Tannen We always save tables for our Lello Arpaia but what what about if that particular night you have used two or three extra table and still you have another important person calling and pressing for a reservation? What do you do that Sheldon Tannen provides at 21 We have more flexibility than associates here Gianni Garavelli clean the table once in a while. David Susskind Sometimes emergency cereal will take us table it's just even not even this why is this? Sheldon Tannen I know now why we invited you here we have we're all very successful restaurant tours very difficult from what I've been hearing to get into all of our restaurants. And David you've made sure to invite us all on so you're always assured of a place and in one of the busy restaruants David Susskind was done with motors. Sirio Maccioni I would like To say one thing is not true. The people doesn't like to be in cloud restaurant. David Susskind It is not they like crap they like Sirio Maccioni each one of you can afford to have a chef and pay $100,000 A year and be served on a beautiful table. The magic of a restaurant if the restaurant deteriorating food and services and it's a different story. But when the service is there and the food is there, the beauty of the restaurant is to be crowded it's the hub and to have the people saturation is not good in anything Gianni Garavelli say crowded until a certain understand I don't believe to sit people want in top of another in my restaurant the space you dance between the table I could sit 10 people more I don't want them what I sent away today because I have no space come back tomorrow. That's what I sent away because has been disturbed. I will never have no more. I am young in this business as a restaurateur as the owner, but I have knowledge that 80% of the years that they come in my restaurant they all congratulate me Gianni don't do like so and so don't croud us leave I tell you David Susskind I tell you one reason you should all go see baba gianni Gianni Garavelli I only make David Susskind it is becuase it ia a new restaurant one year. A wonderful restaurant but also spacious. And you can say you know space is so expensive in New York per square foot. It's feverishly expensive. You got spent Sirio Maccioni I didn't mean in the sense of because no expensive no When the sensor because people want to see people have one you cannot sit one person on top David Susskind We have a minute thought each take 10 seconds. Go ahead, Robert. Robert Meyzen Well, the only thought that I have when it comes to the restaurant is what we all covered in this time is to give the best quality and the nice atmosphere. David Susskind Lello Lello Arpaia locations. Very important. I like to be busy for lunch and dinner. That's that's part of all variables that go with David Susskind Sheldon Tannen, the living legend oh don't slap your knee they told me Sheldon Tannen I'll hit I hit yours ball, not mine. warm friendship. And love is what we tried to give to all of our patrons David Susskind Sirio Sirio Maccioni I think I like to continue in the way it is. Because it's what I like to have my I like my restaurant. And like the people that come to my restauratants David Susskind I like your restaurant. Gianni Gianni Garavelli I am very happy the way of doing I think great deal of love is in the place. That is everybody's happy. And I think it's the only way to be. David Susskind I just want to say these are five great restaurant tours and five great restaurants. There are other fine restaurants in New York that I go to with great pleasure. And I wish they could all be here. But these are special special people in places. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. They'll be back. Thank you that's it for tonight. I hope you enjoyed it. I know I did. Join us again next week. |
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SHOW ENDS
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