1963TV TALK SHOWS
DAVID SUSSKIND INTERVIEWS DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING JR (MLK) (6/9/63)
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| 01:00:02 2.7 |
DAVID SUSSKIND CONDUCTS A LONG, INTIMATE, INTERVIEW WITH CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER REVEREND MARTIN LUTHER KING. SHOW OPENING
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| 01:01:02 62.7 |
INTERVIEW WITH MARTIN LUTHER KING BEGINS
David Susskind: thank you very deeply for taking time out from an arduous schedule to come to New York and do this program with me tonight. Dr. Martin Luther King 1:10 Thank you. David Susskind 1:11 I'd like to begin by asking you what significance does the Birmingham story the Birmingham struggle that has just been concluded have in your view on the overall Negro white struggle in the United States? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:25 Well, I think it has great significance. In that Birmingham has been for many years, the symbol of hardcore resistance to desegregation. And I would say it has been the toughest city in the country in racial relations. It's been the most thoroughly segregated city in America. It has had a terrible record of police brutality. And there have been more unsolved bombings of Negro homes and churches in Birmingham than any other city. Now, in the movement and particular movement that took place. I think we were able to dramatize the indignities and the injustice is which negros confront in Birmingham and other places and the hard core south. And by doing this, I think we were able to bring the issue so much to the surface, that everybody could see it. And after we reach the point of getting basic agreements from the economic power structure, I think it said to people all over, that the barriers are the walls of segregation and crumbling in Birmingham, and they can crumble anywhere, by tackling the most difficult city. It seems to me that we were able to give impetus to other movements and say to people everywhere, that it's just a matter of time now. David Susskind 2:56 I wonder if you believe Dr. King that the Birmingham issue, the Birmingham violence was the specific trigger, which has set off the explosions around the country north and south. Was it was its violence? So the attack on children the use of police, dogs and police truncheons? Were those the triggers that have ignited Englewood, New Jersey and other Southern Communities and other northern communities more than any other incident to date? Dr. Martin Luther King 3:29 Well, I think it's a combination of two things. I think on the one hand, the large number of people who engaged in the demonstrations had something to do with it. In fact, more people were arrested for standing up for civil rights in Birmingham than any other city in the country. Some 3200 were arrested. So I think the mass quality of the movement had its arousing effects, and its repercussions in other communities, along with the indignities of the brutality and the violence, perpetrated against negros. I think these two things arouse negros all over the country and all people of goodwill for that matter. And I'm sure that things that are happening in other communities north and south, at this very time, to a large extent came into being as a result of the mass quality of the movement in Birmingham and the violence perpetrated against Negro David Susskind 4:34 Dr. King subsequent to the Birmingham situation. We have read a lot about the behind the scene maneuvering of the Attorney General Robert Kennedy and Mr. Burke Marshall. How effective was our Justice Department and specifically, Mr. Kennedy, and Mr. Marshall in effecting a final resolution in Birmingham. You were on the scene you were the pivot of the action How effective were they? Dr. Martin Luther King 5:01 Well, I would say that they they were quite effective in at least making it possible for us to have open channels of communication. We had not had any real dialogue prior to the coming of Mr. Burke Marshall, we had made some approaches and some attempts have been made to open negotiations, but it never got off the ground. And I do think that with the coming of the Justice Department and Mr. Marshall in the picture, some channels of communication open, that wouldn't have opened as soon I'm sure they would have eventually opened because of the persistent power of those engaged in the movement. But I think it helped to bring it about earlier. David Susskind 5:58 Where they in your view, Dr. King late in anticipating the extent of the violence, were they? Were they delinquent in getting there soon enough? |
| 01:01:17 77.7 |
SUSSKIND ASKS ABOUT BIRMINGHAM MARCH THAT HAD JUST BEEN CONCLUDED
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| 01:04:34 274.7 |
SUSSKIND ASKS ABOUT THE BEHIND THE SCENES MANEUVERING OF ROBERT KENNEDY AND JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IN HELPING IN BIRMINGHAM
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| 01:06:09 369.7 |
DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING DISCUSSES IN DETAILS THE EVENTS IN BIRMINGHAM
Dr. Martin Luther King 6:09 Well, I think they could have gotten that sooner all along, we had called the Justice Department, I mean, called to the attention of the Justice Department, many of the things that were taken place that were symptoms of grave in justices. And we had many things happening. And in fact, the whole process, we felt was a tragic deprivation of basic constitutional rights. And we constantly call these to the attention of the Justice Department. And at first, they said that that was nothing that they could do, because constitutional questions were not involved, at least the Attorney General did not have the power, the legislative power, the power backed up by the legislative branch of government to move in. The Attorney General has the power to move in and initiate suits, in the area of voting rights, when denials are made in that area. But they contended that they had no power in the other areas. And it went on like this until things started getting out of hand in terms of the violence on the part of the police force. And this is when they came in the situation. David Susskind 7:34 I wanted to ask you, in your view, is the negro community of the United States a flame as never before? And is the suspicion or the fear of sum, that we are on a collision course between the impatience of the Negro and the procrastination of the white community? Is that fear well grounded? Dr. Martin Luther King 7:56 Well, I think that is no doubt about the fact that the Negro is more determined now than ever before to be free. I think that that is a discontent in the negro community, a frustration and an impatience if we can use that word that we haven't seen before. I've been around the country for the last few days, speaking for freedom rallies, and I don't think I've ever seen the negro population of our nation more aroused, and more determined, as I've seen on these particular trips. And I think it has reached the point now that there will be no stopping points shot of justice and freedom. And I think the the great challenge ahead, is to for the people of goodwill to see that the Negro is through with tokenism through with gradualism. And through with see how far you've come ism. And he's determined now to gain these basic rights which have been guaranteed by the Constitution. And God given rights and yet they've not been carried out. It's it really grows out of blasted hopes, because we all responded to the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 with with a great sense of hope. This came to us as a great beacon light of hope. And yet after eight years or more, we've come to see that integration has moved about 1% a year of students a year. And moving at this pace, it will take 92 more years to integrate the schools public schools of the south and then outside of the south we see de facto segregation growing every day. The ghetto continues to exist, and the endless frustrations that develop as a result of economic deprivation. And, and social isolation will naturally cause the kind of discontent that we now have in the negro community. And I think it is colliding with another force that must ultimately give and recognize the urgency of the moment. |
| 01:07:34 454.7 |
SUSSKIND ASKS DR. KING "IS THE NEGRO COMMUNITYOF THE UNITED STATES INFLAMED AS NEVER BEOFRE?"AND ON A COLLISION COURSE WITH THE WHITE COMMUNITY
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| 01:07:55 475.7 |
DR KING SAYS: "THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THE NEGRO IS MORE DETERMINED AND AROUSED NOW TO BE FREE..THEY ARE DISCONTENT AND IMPATIENT AND IT IS GROWING - FREEDOM RIDERS, SCHOOL INTEGRATION AND BLACK FRUSTRATION OF BEING ISSOLATED"
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| 01:10:17 618.7 |
SUSSKIND ASKS IF THE PACE OF DESEGREGATION DOES NOT SPEED UP MIGHT THERE BE MORE VIOLENCE
David Susskind 10:18 Do you fear that if the pace of desegregation and integration is not sufficiently Swift, that violence is inevitable, and that your own non violent movement may be overridden by the militancy of the Negro community? Dr. Martin Luther King 10:36 Well, realism impels me to admit that if we cannot speed up the process, so to speak, if we can't move on, and break down these barriers of segregation and discrimination, out of frustration, and despair, many Negroes may turn to violence and other courses of action that they wouldn't ordinarily respond to the they wouldn't ordinarily use as a technique. And I think there is an urgency about the situation. And I think if the nonviolent movement is not supported, and if they're not attempts may have had ever hand to give support to those who are trying to work out something through the creative channel of non violence, then it may open the door for the more extremist groups to come in, and really take over to the point that they will serve as the outlet for many Negroes who become desperately impatient, David Susskind 11:54 Dr. King, we've been led to believe the President is preparing a civil rights message, proposing new legislation, if this legislation is watered down, or insufficient for the Negro purposes, or it is killed in filibuster in the Senate, what would be the aftermath, in your opinion, among the Negro people in this country, Dr. Martin Luther King 12:16 I think the aftermath would be a deeper frustration, a deeper discontent, which would inevitably lead to deeper bitterness on the part of many Negroes. And with this kind of bitterness emerging, it can develop into a very explosive situation, I mean, explosive in terms of violence. And I must make it clear that I'm not advocating this. And I'm not predicting this, but I'm trying to analyze the problem realistically. And honestly, I think if we don't get a strong civil rights, message and proposal from the President, and if we don't get an actual implementation of it on the part of Congress, we will see ourselves in a deeper situation of chaos. And I think that this is this makes it even more urgent for the forces of goodwill to really work hard to get it through. This is why I've said in recent days, that it's unfortunate that the President may be out of the country during the period when so many forces need to be mobilized. And when the tremendous weight and prestige of the President will be needed to mobilize these forces, because I'm sure the South is thinking now in terms of talking the bill away, filibustering, and this will be tragic, it will be unfortunate. And I think it can lead to a dark night of terror. David Susskind 14:03 Dr. King are you optimistic about the effectiveness of the upcoming message, will it in your view in terms of the political insight you have, will it be sufficient in its in what it asks of the Congress? And are you also optimistic about passage of whatever is proposed? Dr. Martin Luther King 14:23 Well, I think the the will be a fairly strong deal if it follows what has been reported in the press. I do think we need something like the kind of public accommodations bill which would prohibit discrimination in any business that is engaged in interstate commerce. I think this is good and it will do a great deal to end segregation in many of the hotels and restaurants and other businesses throughout the South. And I think that is a great need to speed up the process of public school integration. As I said a few minutes ago, this has really been a frustrating and a very slow process, and something has to be done. Now, if the bill calls for speed up in the integration process in the schools, I think this will be very good and very helpful. Now, as far as the possibility of passage, I am not optimistic about it passing, if certain things are done, to bring the necessary moral and creative pressure to bow, so that congressmen will see the necessity of this, for instance, I think, as I said, a few minutes ago, the President himself must do more than issue a call make certain recommendations David Susskind 15:58 like what would you recommend you do? Dr. King? Should he give fireside chat on it? |
| 01:16:01 962.44 |
Dr. Martin Luther King 16:02
I think so. I think he should, I think he should give fireside chats on it. And then I think more than one would be necessary. I think the president should also have conferences with congressmen and get them try to persuade them to see the necessity of passing this bill. And I think he would need to talk with certain groups across the country. So that it will create a climate of civil rights concern will be created. And people all over the country will be writing their senators and their representatives in Congress on this issue. I think these things are absolutely necessary. And I think the the devotees or civil rights will have to do something. I mean, I think the civil rights leaders and all of the the Negroes in the country, as well as allies in the white community will have to do something and I don't throw out the idea of the necessity of a march on Washington. Even sit ins and Congress to get this issue dramatize so much that it cannot be ignored. David Susskind 17:22 March on Washington by negros and whites. Dr. Martin Luther King 17:26 Yes, all citizens. Yes, I'm thinking now of, of all people of goodwill, who are concerned about the American dream and the implementation of the basic principles of our democracy. And this would include negros and whites, and I think it would have more power, if it is an interracial March, calling upon our nation to bring into being these just laws which will take us on a long, long way toward the American dream. David Susskind 18:00 In the recent meeting between James Baldwin, you know, on Harry Belafonte and other prominent negros with the Attorney General, the suggestion was made that the President could make a very dramatic contribution to the issue. By taking the University of Alabama Negro applicants to the school himself, the Attorney General was reported to recoil at this idea to been stung or horrified or taken aback. Do you think the President United States should go to that dramatic degree by way of using moral power of his office? Dr. Martin Luther King 18:35 Yes, I think so. I, I have said on several occasions in recent days, that this would be the kind of meaningful Act and the kind of dramatic thrust that would make it clear all over the world that we mean business when we talk about basic human rights and democracy and guaranteeing these basic rights to all citizens. And I think we have come to the point in our nation that we need this kind of moral witness on the part of the highest official and the most respected citizen in our nation. It would, it would give a sense of hope to the Negro, it would give a sense of support to the many, many white people of goodwill north and south who had been working in this area. And it would do a great deal to lift the image of the United States, in the eyes of the world, people of all countries who are looking and they are seeing all of these bad things, but to see this as a great Moral Act would do a great deal, I think to give us a better image all over the world. David Susskind 19:56 Dr. King, we must pause for just a brief moment. We'll be right back. David Susskind 20:01 Is the President United States to date wanting in the way in which he has used the moral power of his office moral suasion. And if you do find him wanting in your remarks up to this time seem to suggest that you do. What has been his motive? Do you think in holding back? Dr. Martin Luther King 20:21 Well, I must honestly confess that the President hasn't done all that he could do. And we would like to see him do in the area of civil rights. I don't want to be unfair. In my criticism, I want to say on one hand that the President has done some significant things in civil rights. And I think he is basically a man of genuine goodwill. Who wants to do the right thing. And I could point to some of the things that he's done that have been helpful. On the other hand, the president Kennedy has not yet given the leadership that the enormity of the problem demands, he has failed to live up to his campaign promises. He has not gone on record calling for any meaningful civil rights legislation up to now. And if he does, in the coming days, we would welcome this, but he has not done it in the past. And, of course, that is still the need to use the power of moral persuasion to a greater degree than he has in the past. This is one area where the President has has not moved with, with a great sense of urgency. |
| 01:21:47 1307.97 |
David Susskind 21:48
Why has he hedged today? Political consideration. Southern votes Dr. Martin Luther King 21:53 I think it boils down to a fear of arousing eye of the southern congressman, many of whom hold the leadership and basic and important committees in Congress. And it may be that the President feels that his other legislative program can get through if he makes these senators and congressmen too angry on the civil rights issue. My position has been that this issue is a basic moral issue. I mean, the civil rights issue, and that many of the Southerners are going to take a stand against the President's legislative program. And we know the phase of his legislative program anyway. And it is better to go down taking a strong moral position than to lose out when you have heads down on a basic moral principle. And I think this is a choice before the President, he must start now making moral decisions, rather than purely political decisions. And I think in the final analysis, he will be supported in the country. It's very seldom that an individual in the political world has an opportunity to do that which is morally right and politically expedient, simultaneously. But I think this is one issue. That is morally right on the one hand and politically expedient on the other. I think the President will discover that if he took a forthright, courageous stand on this issue, he would get great support from from people all over the country, particularly in the big industrial, urban areas of the north and the west that in the final analysis, will elect the president. David Susskind 23:55 Dr. King, will the coming showdown between Governor Wallace and the federal government on the admission of the two Nigro students to the University of Alabama, in your view, will that lead to new violence in Alabama? There are 1000 troops stationed there, the Negro community probably awaits the event. If Governor Wallace were to do a governor Barnett act and attempt to prevent the entry himself physically with his troops, would that lead to an outbreak of new violence? Dr. Martin Luther King 24:28 Well, I think there is danger. There's a real possibility. Now in recent days, Governor Wallace has backed up a bit and he has gone on television calling for non violence and calling for peace and all that orderliness and how much influences will have I don't know. I feel now the governer Wallave has been under so much pressure from the public Political power structure of the state the economic power structure, the business leaders and the ecclesiastical power structure. The ministers from all over have said to government Wallace, this is the wrong course of action, the Attorney General of the State, the lieutenant governor. And I think he's been under so much pressure that he may change his course of action, and try to follow through on some token political promise that he made, yet at the same time trying to keep violence from erupting. If this happens, it may, it may be possible to prevent violence. On the other hand, if the governor over the next few days persists in his determination to stand in the door and place, the troops of state troopers of Alabama over against the trying to block the entrance of the Negro students. And then the showdown comes between the state and the federal government, there is a danger that the violent forces of the state will become so aroused that they will resort to violence and will unconsciously unconsciously feel that they are aided and abetted by Governor Wallace and and all that they're doing. So it's difficult to say, I think we must realize that it's a dangerous situation. And Governor Wallace has done a grave injustice not only to Alabama, but to the whole nation. By embarking on such an irresponsible course of action. David Susskind 26:36 Dr. King has the pressure of events, and the frustration of the Negro, in seeking his rights. Made your philosophy your doctrine of non violence more difficult to preach effectively within your own people. Is there now a militancy that is damaging your, your theology of nonviolent? Dr. Martin Luther King 27:05 Well, at this point? I don't think so. I must make it clear that I don't advocate a weak and sort of complacent, non violence. I advocate a militant non violence, a movement that moves on a resistance movement that does resist, but it does it non violently. Now, I am as impatient as anybody about the slow pace of the desegregation process. And I feel that we've got to move on in a very vigorous, forthright and determined manner. My only insistence is that it would be both impractical, and immoral to try to make violence, our major thrust to try to make violence a method that we will use to get to the goal of integration. And I as I said, I think it's just downright impractical even if one doesn't take the moral questions under consideration. Now, it is true that because of the failure of the forces of goodwill, to rally around the democratic ideal and the whole process of integration, many people in the negro community have become so impatient that they become bitter, and it is more difficult to get over. In a situation like this see the philosophy of non violence it makes the job much more difficult. When we are moving on and people see this creative outlet. It's easier for them to remain true to the non violent creed. But when things are slow, and even those who are leaders in the non violent movement are considered rabble rousers and agitators, then it does make the job much more difficult to get this philosophy over. And I will be the first one to admit that with the with the growth of the movement, and with it rising to such astronomical proportions in terms of numbers, and with all of the communities that are now rising up, it means that we are going to have to spend more times time and get more hands to help us work in these communities so that we will be sure that at least we've tried to get over the meaning of the whole philosophy of non violence. |
| 01:29:49 1789.68 |
David Susskind 29:51
What was your reaction to the reported reaction of Attorney General Kennedy at the meeting with Mr. Bowman reports were in the New York Times and other reliable papers of the Attorney General was stunned at the extent of militancy, anger and impatience that he found among these Negro artists. That was this an ingenuous reaction had he so misread the temper of the American Negro? Dr. Martin Luther King 30:23 Well, I think this is a real possibility. And I think many white people of goodwill, many who are even fairly close to the negro community, fail to realize the seriousness of this problem. And, and the, the, the mood of the Negro, the the impatience and the discontent of the Negro. I think that many people fail to see this. And it isn't that they are not people of goodwill. On the whole, they understand the depths and dimensions of the problem. But they just haven't been able to see this new determination on the part of the Negro and the new determination itself has grown out of this impatience and this great discontent. So that I'm not surprised to, to, to know that some left with a conclusion that the Attorney General didn't realize this, because I've seen others who, who have been very concerned about the problem of racial injustice, but somehow had not been able to, to understand that to see this growing militancy in the negro community, David Susskind 31:43 does the reaction of the northern and western Negro against de facto segregation and housing and lack of equal job opportunity contain the same elements of violence potential, as we are seeing in the south today? Dr. Martin Luther King 32:01 I think so. And some, sometimes even more, because in the south, the, the system of segregation is legal, and therefore overt. And it's easier to get at it points. It's out in the open so you can tackle it legally, you can tackle it through non violent demonstrations and other forces. And you can see pockets of progress here and there. In the south. You can look back and say, well, a year ago, I couldn't go to the lunch counters. But now we can go a year ago, I couldn't go in the hotels in this particular city. But now I can go a year ago, we could not go in theaters. But now we can go so you do see progress. at certain levels. It's just token progress, but it can be seen. Now on the North is different sense. Segregation is not legal. It has to be subtle. It has to be covert. And because of the growing problems around this, often the Negro can only see retrogress. If he lives in a city like Detroit, he recognizes that he's about 28 to 30% of the population and yet almost 70% of the unemployed, because of discrimination and the fact that negros have been limited to unskilled and semi skilled labor force call automation comes into being and these are the jobs that pass away so that the negros are the ones who suffer most at this point in the large industrial areas of the North. And I think because of this unemployment because of the continued existence of the ghetto. And these things are involved together, you see the evils of employment discrimination and housing discrimination caught together. If a man doesn't have enough money to live, he certainly can get adequate housing. And even if he has money in so many instances, he can't get it. David Susskind 34:13 Is he ready to march to demonstrate to do the kind of thing that the southern Negro has done? Is he at that point in your? Dr. Martin Luther King 34:21 Oh yes, I think so. I've been in several northern communities recently, and I would say that the vast majority of Negroes in these communities are so concerned about this issue and so frustrated about it, that they are willing, now more than ever to take this issue to the point of engaging in mass nonviolent demonstrations. In fact, we've seen some of it in Philadelphia and in recent days where they had mass, pick it in and Mass demonstrations, some of it even erupted into violence. Now, I think this is a real possibility in cities all over the north, where the Negro is just so caught up in the crippling shackles of frustration David Susskind 35:17 You think Washington DC as a particular danger point with Malcolm X having moved there with the Negroes being the majority of the population with job discrimination, and ghettoizing being so deeply embedded in the nation's capital, do you see Washington as a particular point of explosion? Dr. Martin Luther King 35:37 Well, this is, this is a community that can explode like many others. And I don't think it will only be because of Malcolm X moving down. My contention is that if we keep moving, and if we can solve the problem by continued working at it, then Malcolm X, and the Muslims won't have an influence I don't think they've had anywhere as near I mean, as much influence as many would think, at points, this movement has been a sort of paper tiger. But I would, I would say that these communities like Washington and Washington, as you say, is a majority negro population has a majority negro population, these communities can explode into a terrible racial nightmare, if something isn't done, and I think it can be watered off by vigorous programs on the part of the federal government and on the part of local state governments. In other words, it will be determined by the degree to which the political leaders and other leaders will meet the problem head on. And Washington is a good example. If the leaders in Washington backed up by the president will see the danger responsibilities and set out to deal with the problem of housing discrimination and employment discrimination. And suddenly, the Negro conferences in Washington and all over, then there will be a ray of hope. Now, the President is considering doing something about eliminating discrimination in Federal construction programs. This is just one level, but it does represent some progress if he can get an executive order through on that. And this will make new jobs for negros and where you have new jobs and the Negro sees that he's moving from the periphery of American society to the point of being involved and knowing that he has something to lose, then he will, he will not feel the need of responding with violent reactions. David Susskind 38:01 Dr. King we have to pause again, very briefly. We'll be back in a moment. |
| 01:38:06 2286.94 |
David Susskind 38:07
Dr. King, you have been reported very recently as saying that you no longer fear the Ku Klux Klan or the White Citizens Council, as much as you have begun to fear the white moderate, that he is the bone in the throat of Negro progress. Would you implement that statement? And tell us what you mean by that? Dr. Martin Luther King 38:28 Yes, well, I guess I entered this period, I was catapulted into the leadership of the civil rights struggle during the Montgomery bus boycott. And I entered the the struggle at that point, having great faith in the moderates in the white community feeling that the moderates would understand and that we would have great allies and struggle from the so called moderates. But in recent years, I've come to see that these are often the people who stand in the way of progress, because they are committed only in a lukewarm manner. And every time you move to try to solve the problem, they will respond by saying, you're moving too fast, you ought to cool off you should put on brakes, and they end up more devoted to order than to justice and more devoted to maintain an assault of negative peace, which is merely the absence of tension, then gaining a positive peace which is the presence of justice. And they can always say to you that you should wait for a more convenient season. And I've come to see that these are the people that often stand in the way because they get close, close enough to you to at least discuss your plans and they become friendly enough to, to talk with you, you at least have dialogue with them. But they want to stand in the way of every move forward. And this has been my disappointment, I think at times, it is better to have outright rejection and misunderstanding from people of ill will and to have lukewarm acceptance from people of goodwill, it is better to have absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will than to have partial understanding from people of goodwill. And this is what we are seeing every day in our struggle in the South that many of the moderates of the white South and, and many of them mean well, and I shouldn't only say the sound, but the moderates all over stand in the way of progress. Because they refuse to understand the problem and they live by the myth of time. Failing to realize that time will not solve the problem, and as a danger that the moderate will live by this myth believing that if you just leave things alone and not push too much time will solve the problem. And it has always been my contention that this is an invalid view because it goes out with the idea that that is something in the very nature and structure of time, that will miraculously solve all problems and time really is neutral, it can be used either constructively or destructively and at times, I think the people have ill will have used time much more effectively than the people of goodwill. David Susskind 41:58 Many student experienced observers of the Washington scene describe the mood of the administration in the area of racial relations is one of Bleak despair, because they feel the administration say these reporters that they cannot possibly legislate or executive order or innovate enough, fast enough to accommodate the surging expectations and want of the Negro community that they could not possibly keep up with the appetite for progress that the Negroes want in this country. Would you comment on that? Dr. Martin Luther King 42:37 Well, I think they can. I don't think that the span needs to exist. I think the administration must recognize that the harvest of disruption that we now see over the country is here because of seeds of inaction planted over the last several years. If, for instance, the President had taken a real stand on the moral issues of integration. In 1954, after the Supreme Court rendered its decision, things would be different now. But because of the failure of President Eisenhower to take a forthright moral stand, a vacuum set in and the forces of opposition were able to organize and crystallize opposition. And this set us back for a period, I think the new administration will have to see the necessity of making up it's just as simple as he who gets behind in a race must forever remain behind a run faster than the man in front. And we've got to see that we have gotten behind in the race of really following through on the executive and the legislative levels, even on the things that have been done through the judicial branch of the government. I think through a combination of efforts. This problem can be solved. I think the new administration must see the necessity of moving through executive orders, through legislative channels, and through moral persuasion. And I always keep that at the forefront. Because I think there's a great deal that can be done here. I was in India some few years ago. And I'd spent a good deal of time studying the problem of caste untouchability, which is quite similar to our problem here. And I was very interesting to me to notice that India had made much more progress and grappling with this problem than we've made. And I came to the conclusion that this progress had been made for two or three reasons First, when the new nation came into being when they received independence, it was placed in the Constitution That to discriminate against an untouchable was a crime punishable by imprisonment. But not only that, India always had great symbols standing up in a moral way against it. For instance, Mahatma Gandhi had adopted and untouchable as his daughter against the wheel even if his wife and when I was in India some six weeks. Prime Minister Nehru made four different speeches in which he morally condemned caste untouchability. And yet we very seldom if ever hear the President of the United States, speaking to the nation on the moral issues of integration, when they speak it usually, this is the law and we must obey the law. We are a nation of laws and not men never saying that James Meredith should go to the University of Mississippi, because integration is right. And because he's your brother. And I think that with all of these forces, working together, the legislative, the executive and moral persuasion on the part of the President, we can do this catching up. But the danger is that we will just do a few token things here and there, and it's just like applying Vaseline to a cancer. We must move away from the approach of tokenism and see the necessity for a vigorous program. |
| 01:46:22 2783.65 |
David Susskind 46:23
Dr. King, Mr. James Baldwin has emerged very recently, as an important spokesman for the negro community in America. I'm sure you would attest to his eloquence and his brilliance. But I wonder whether you feel he does damage with such remarks, as his comment on the black Muslims. It's the only movement in the country you can call grassroots. I hate to say that, but it's true. They talk and articulate for all the Negroes. They articulate this suffering. Or this comment on you on Martin Luther King, rare and great man, he has great moral authority in the South. He's gone through hell to awaken the American conscience. But he has reached the end of the road. Martin is undercut by the country. Now, is he doing a disservice in his backhand in support of the Muslims? And is he doing a disservice when he suggests that your non violent creed credo is passe? Dr. Martin Luther King 47:22 Well, I think James Baldwin is certainly an eloquent writer and a profound thinker. And I think he has analyzed the depths of this problem in in a very fine way. Now, this doesn't mean that I agree with everything that he says I, I wish he could see not only the negative reaction of the Muslim movement, but the very beautiful and creative way that 1000s and 1000s of Negroes are using to get out of the dilemma of racial injustice. And I do think that this is a grassroots movement. The real grassroots movement is a movement that has taken place all over the south today where 1000s and 1000s of people have a new sense of dignity and destiny. And they feel that that is a creative channel through which they can channelize their legitimate and unhealthy discontent and I think it is necessary to be discontent but I think it's it's the health of discontentment David Susskind 48:37 doesn't Jim Baldwin seem to be saying on the one hand, Destiny dictates progress in the quality now, which is fine. But doesn't he, on the other hand, seem to be waiting a fist in the air and saying, If you don't, the black Muslim solution is inevitable. And beware because it means real serious, violent trouble voice. Is that not a disservice by raising the flag of the Muslim? Dr. Martin Luther King 49:03 Well, I wouldn't want to falsely represent him. I don't know if he's advocating this. Speaking as a social analysts, I think we would all agree that if something isn't done and done in a hurry, there is a danger of that, out of despair, negros will turn more and more to black nationalist ideologies. I'm not saying all negros, but more than have turned and, and the last few years now, that's one thing but to advocate this as another. And I'm not able to say whether James Baldwin is advocating that the Negro will turn to the Muslim movement to be worn. David Susskind 49:56 Yes, I wonder in the recent television To view he said the President Kennedy would have a difficult time enlisting Negroes in an invasion attempt should one become necessary. For they were not prepared to fight and die for a country that would not grant them freedom and equality and your view, at this point, are many Negroes unwilling to support our country militarily? Dr. Martin Luther King 50:21 Well, I don't think that at this point, the Negro has reached a position of utter despair. I think the amazing thing is that the Negro hadn't turned to movements that really thrive on despair. This is the amazing thing to me that out of 20 million Negroes in America, all of the black nationalist movements together, I haven't been able to get more than 100,000. Members. This is the amazing thing. And this reveals that the Negro has not yet turned to the point of giving up all together and given up with a sense of hopelessness. I think there's still a great sense of hope, and a basic faith in America on the part of the American Negro. David Susskind 51:20 If we were faced with a military crisis at this moment, then the girl would render unto his country that that which He has always rendered, Dr. Martin Luther King 51:27 oh, I think so. I don't think the vast majority of Negroes what, what turn against the country and the time of war? I don't I don't see that kind of despair. At this point. I don't know what it would turn out to be if events go the other way. And we see more retrogress and progress. But I don't think that that is this kind of despair, this point that the Negro will turn against the nation. David Susskind 51:54 Malcolm X recently, very recently said that any Negro who teaches other Negroes to turn on the other cheek is disarming that negro. you comment on that? |
| 01:52:04 3125.42 |
Dr. Martin Luther King 52:06
Well, I think he would have to understand of turning the other cheek and the strength of nonviolence. I think too often we think of this as a weak approach and sort of philosophy that means you get caught up in stagnant passivity and deadening complacency where you just sit down and, and accept injustice. Now there's a world of difference between non resistance to evil and non violent resistance. Now, I do not advocate non resistance to evil I advocate non violent resist resistance, which means turning the other cheek in a very powerful and creative way. And really, this approach ends up disarming the opponent, it has marvelous strategy. Even beyond the moral question, I think the reason one should be non violent is for moral reasons in the final analysis, because this is morally right, but it has a power of disarming the opponent. It exposes his moral defenses, it weakens his morale. And at the same time, it works on his conscience. And I think Malcolm X is altogether wrong. If he thinks that we can do this by turning to violence. I'm not saying that he's saying that. But if this is even implied, I think we would get the other results. If we would turn to violence, we couldn't do these other things. It would really lead to the position of having state militias being used by Southern Governors to kill and destroy a lot of innocent negros under the pretense of negros on citing a riot. But with a method that we've used up to now. It's so frustrates the opponent that he just doesn't know how to react if he if he doesn't put you in jail, wonderful, because nobody within incense loves to go to jail. But if he puts you in jail, you somehow in a creative manner, transform that jail, from a dungeon of shame to a haven of freedom and human dignity and, and he doesn't know how to handle it. David Susskind 54:18 We must pause again very briefly. David Susskind 54:23 Dr. King Richard revere in an article in The New Yorker magazine said that this is the first administration which viewed racial inequality as morally reprehensible. First, I wonder, is this in your view, the first administration that seems to me that the Eisenhower administration equally viewed with alarm but was equally hedging in its moral use of moral powers. But Mr. Revere then went on to say that it's unfortunate that the Negro Rebellion has recurred occurred during such an administration's reign. In other words, he sort of sanctifies this administration and thinks it's some Have a pity that this explosion has occurred during the Kennedy administration. Has the Kennedy administration been any more morally aligned than the Eisenhower administration? And is it unfortunate that the violence and dramatic explosion has occurred during the Kennedy administration? Dr. Martin Luther King 55:18 Well, I think I it may be true that the Kennedy administration has done more in civil rights in the Eisenhower administration. But this still doesn't say that the Kennedy administration has done enough and that the moral alarm has been a moral concern, it's been so great that it doesn't merit negros continuing to press on in a very determined way. It merely means substituting and inadequate performance for a miserable one. And I think that we all have, I mean, we all know that there are many areas that have not been touched by the new administration, and things that could be done to solve the problem that have not been done. So I would say that it is as necessary to stand up vigorously against racial discrimination now, and under the present administration, as it was under any other administration. I don't think it is true, that the Negro can afford to relax his efforts, simply because you have a new administration that that may have. That may have done a little more, but still hadn't done enough. For instance, I think the President has done some very significant things that touched a certain segment of the negro population. But now there is need for the kind of strong program that will improve the life of all the masses of Negroes, so to speak. And this is a great concern of all people of goodwill, because if we don't get this, it will just be a sort of crystallization of, of what we call tokenism, where you get token gains here and there, you get appointments of Negroes in positions that they've never been in, but the plight, of the vast majority of Negroes remains the same. And now we need to lift the life and make better conditions for negros generally, David Susskind 57:35 you think that the appointment of the occasional Negro to a position of authority and importance in the government? Isn't that political window dressing, it doesn't really matter in the deep sense of creating abroad, job equality or an all out campaign for voter registration or integration of schools? Isn't that a form of political chicanery? Dr. Martin Luther King 58:01 Well, again, I wouldn't want to question the motives of the administration. The President at this point, it may very well be that but I don't want to question that. But I do feel that in the long run, it would be much better to grapple with a problem from the causal source than to make a few appointments here and there that may appease negros general and make them feel that a great job is being done. When at bottom, it's, the problem is still there, this becomes a little more than a sort of tranquilizing approach that removes the emotional stress for the moment. But doesn't really get out the basic ill. David Susskind 58:56 Dr. King, you have shaken a warning and righteous finger at the whites of the United States. On many counts, and rightfully but I wonder if the Negro himself has been active enough intelligent enough and functional enough in the use of his economic power, if a chain store system in this country discriminates in the south, if a drug chain if a theater chain discriminates? Hasn't the northern Western and middle Western Negro got enormous powers of retaliation by withholding his patronage by boycotting such establishments? Why hasn't he been more effective in the use of his economic power? |
| 01:59:40 3581.02 |
Dr. Martin Luther King 59:41
Well, I think the Negro is recognizing more and more the power of his own economic resources and the power that develops when he withdraws his economic resources from businesses and industries that discriminate against them on the basis of race. We've done this to a degree and most of movements in the south, most of the citizens, for instance, had been followed by a strong economic boycott of the particular stores involved. Recently in Birmingham, we saw this and I'm convinced that one of the things that brought about the agreement and the final agreement to integrate lunch counters was that we had a boycott of the downtown stores that was more than 97% effective. And this has existed in many communities where we've had sit ins. Now I think that this will be broadened more and more on the question of employment. I have advocated a nationwide selective buying program, whereby we will go down the list from industry to industry, business to business. And we will make it very clear that if our persons are not respected, then our dollar will no longer be David Susskind 1:01:10 Are there prime manufacturing offenders are their prime store offenders that the northern and western negros should know about. Dr. Martin Luther King 1:01:20 Well, at the present time studies are being made, we don't want to move out and unjustly criticize victimize anyone, we want to be sure that we have evidence of discrimination. And I have talked with several people about this people who are in positions of authority and who have the research facilities to determine which industries should come under this kind of attack because of discrimination in employment. I might say that we aren't satisfied with most of the industries in terms of their employment policy. Some are certainly doing better than others. But there are very few industries David Susskind 1:02:09 there's some that are implacable intransigent, that you would want to name. Dr. Martin Luther King 1:02:13 Well, I wouldn't want to name a national one. Now, because we are still in the process of studying now we've had selected buying campaigns going in local communities for quite a while now. Philadelphia had a very strong economic withdrawal program or selected buying program. We've had it in Atlanta, Georgia, where we are the Southern Christian Leadership Conference has its headquarters. And there were one or two we started with the bacon industry. And I wanted to Baker's that we had to boycott but they finally came in line because of the power of the boycott. Now, this will be extended on a national level so that there may be, say 20 cities, we're thinking of something like this, that will boycott a particular product, where there is outright discrimination and they refuse to do anything about it. Now we will seek to negotiate first. And if through the channel of negotiation, we can get the situation rectified, we will have no alternative but to tell our people that this particular business discriminates against negros and employment and then we will urge them not to patronize these businesses. David Susskind 1:03:31 Dr. King, Danish reporter Hans Rubin in the reporter magazine said that if Dr. Martin Luther King had been murdered, it would have stopped presses all around the world. But how do you explain to your editor that the most amazing story is the Dr. King is still alive? Do you consider that a miracle? Is that a sign of some form of negative progress as he seems to suggest? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:03:55 Well, I don't know. I get threats every day and they don't. They don't stop. They even grow greater when movements develop like the Birmingham movement. I don't know what this can be attributed to I haven't I don't have any bodyguard or anything like that. I don't even request protection from the federal government. Although when I go into cities for large meetings to speak and things like that the communities usually provide protection. But David Susskind 1:04:31 has the federal government ever offered you protection? Personal Protection? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:04:35 Yes. In some instances when we've been in situations like the Freedom Rides in Montgomery when great threats came and not in Birmingham because the federal government hasn't been in in the same sense that they were in Montgomery during the Freedom Rides they had federal marshals out. In Birmingham, FBI men are usually on the scene. When I'm coming in or leaving, but I can only say that nothing has been done as far as my life being taken. I guess I'm religious enough to say that this is the grace of God. But as I said, the threats continue to come. And we continue to go on knowing that this course of action is in line with that which is morally right. David Susskind 1:05:30 Dr. King Do you think that either political party has any particular Medal of Honor to wear in the civil rights, the Negro invariably gives you support to the Democratic Party, yet it is the democratic contingent from the south in the House and the Senate invariably gives the Negro legislation the most difficult time this automatic wedding of the Negro vote to the Democratic Party? Is that earned? And is it a healthy thing? |
| 02:06:00 3960.94 |
Dr. Martin Luther King 1:06:02
Well, I don't think either political party can boast of clean hands in the area of civil rights. I think both parties have betrayed the cause of justice. The Democratic Party has betrayed the cause of justice by capitulating to the undemocratic practices of the Southern Dixiecrats. And I think the Republican Party has betrayed the cause by capitulating to the blatant hypocrisy of many right wing northern Republicans. And it has been this coalition of right wing northern Republicans and southern Dixiecrats that has stood in the way of every progressive step in civil rights legislation, so neither party can boast of clean hands, and in this area, now, I think, more and more, the Negro will vote for that candidate, and that party, which will take a definite stand on the basic issues of human rights and all the the issues that go along with it. And that will do something about it, not just verbal affirmation, but in terms of concrete action. And I don't think any political party will be able to boast that it has a Negro and its best pocket. And I think this is good. David Susskind 1:07:31 But it has the Democratic Party has, in fact, had and continues to have the Negro vote. And it's 70 80% of the Negro community in the big cities, Detroit, Chicago, New York, vote straight down the democratic line. Yeah. Isn't the Negro in voting that way doing himself a disservice? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:07:48 Well, I think the the Negro is caught in a very difficult position here. On the one hand, the Democratic Party has been a little closer to the masses of people on breading, but bread and butter issues. And outside of the South, negros have been able to see a degree of progressive liberalism within the Democratic Party. And here is a dilemma that you have this schizophrenic personality at the center of a party, wherein on the one hand, you see a progressive liberal thrust. And on the other hand, you see this backward reactionary thrust on the part of the Southern Dixiecrats and it presents a dilemma. The Negro choosing between the issue of civil rights and social welfare issues David Susskind 1:08:47 Medicare and education bill. But I wonder, for example, whether the republican party wins any votes for the effort, for example, in the House of Representatives recently of John Lindsay, and other congressmen to initiate on their own resources, effective civil rights legislation, not waiting on a presidential message. Do they earn Negro accolade? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:09:09 Well, I think this could become increasingly true of the Republican Party would somehow throw the yoke of division from its own shoulders. Now there again, the Negro face dilemma because just as you have an Eastland and the Democratic Party, you have a Goldwater and the Republican Party, who will come down south and make a speech and say that the Supreme Court's decision in the law of the land, and who just yesterday made it clear that he's not sure whether he will support civil rights legislation. So it is a dilemma for the Negro he doesn't when he looks to the Republican Party, he sees the same schizophrenia. He sees the same division between the progressive Javits and the cases and and the In the middle Dershkins and the reactionary Goldwater so that you, you do run into a real and David Susskind 1:10:08 The negro should begin to vote for the man and not the party would not be the more effective way Dr. Martin Luther King 1:10:12 Well, I think this will happen more and more. And this has been true that, in many communities, negros and unknown have voted for liberal Republicans over against what they considered a Democrat who didn't quite come up to this person. David Susskind 1:10:33 Does your being a minister, give you the ultimate conviction that your mission of equality of opportunity, equality of education, so forth, is going to be accomplished peacefully where the facts of history are, that human rights are almost always one in violence and bloodshed, and manifested in patients by taking up arms do you grow a little bit pessimistic about the philosophy of nonviolent resistance, however, militant that violence is? |
| 02:11:05 4266.14 |
Dr. Martin Luther King 1:11:06
No, I am more convinced now than ever before that non violence. nonviolent resistance is the most potent weapon available to oppress people in that struggle for freedom and justice. I think the aftermath is much greater for everybody involved, the aftermath of violence is bitterness. And you've got to spend another 100 years getting rid of the bitterness created as a result of the violent revolution, wherein the aftermath of non violence is redemption and the possibility of the creation of the beloved community. Now, in recent years, we have seen nations gain their independence where colonialism was a problem. And we have seen groups within nations gain better opportunities without violence. So examples would be India, there are nations in Africa that came into being not violent, out of on the basis of violence, but on the basis of nonviolent protests. Ghana would be an example Nigeria, and many other nations in Africa, they have come into being as a result of the persistent agitation on the part of the masses of people who followed a non violent cause of action. And I think the best and largest example was India. Now, I think that it is even more urgent, to follow non violence in a situation where you are seeking to gain your rights within a nation that you're going to have to live. And even after these rights come in the colonial struggle, the struggle for independence, you're seeking to, to drive a foreign invader out, when when you seek an integration, you are seeking an adjustment and better conditions in a situation where you will be living with a very people the next morning. And I think it is even more necessary in such a situation to follow non violence because the one thing that nonviolent says is that your aim is not to destroy, annihilate the opponent, but to win his friendship and understanding and you engage in your protest activities in order to arouse the conscience of the opponent. And in order to bring the issue to the surface so that everybody can see it and deal with it. But you are not trying to get rid of him. And this is why I think it's so important to remain true to non violence. David Susskind 1:14:01 Excuse me for just one minute, another intermission. David Susskind 1:14:07 Representative Adam Clayton Powell observed a few days ago that there's very little difference between the north and the south and matter of racial relations. Except that I would say he said that there is more hypocrisy in the north and more honesty in the South. Would you agree with that? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:14:26 Well, I would certainly say is as some truth in the idea that there is a great deal of hypocrisy in the north. And the southern white man is more honest and coming right out and saying open there, what he feels about the Negro. On the other hand, I think there is a difference. And I would not want to give the impression that the problem is the same In degree in the south in the north, in the South, as I said earlier, the problem is that of getting rid of desegregation, I mean, getting rid of segregation and bringing into being a desegregated society as well as an integrated one. So that we've got to, we've got to get desegregation, as well as integration. In the north, by and large, you have desegregation and the real job of the North is to become integrated, you have the legal sanction of the system in many areas of the South. And because of this, it means that you have the job of getting rid of the system of segregation, which is legal, as well as moving on to that highest system, which deals with attitudes, deals with mutual acceptance, genuine intergroup and interpersonal living. So that there there is this difference. Now, I do feel that the North must be eternally vigilant and it must not become complacent. Because this happens, many of the subtle types of discrimination will continue to grow and develop. And they will become as, as great, the de facto segregation of the North will come as become as great as the legal segregation in the South. David Susskind 1:16:37 Dr. King don't you honestly feel that Representative Adam Clayton Powell is a terrible millstone in the sense of his appalling absentee record as a legislator in the sense of his flagrant personal behavior, and in the sense of his almost incessant racial mongering for self serving political purposes? Doesn't he do your community poor service? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:17:05 Well, I wouldn't like to pass judgment on Congressman Powell And sure that there are many things that he does, and sometimes things that he says that we would question. And they are points of disagreement. But I wouldn't want to pass judgment on him. I think this is something that he has to face with his own conscience. And David Susskind 1:17:37 he has a lot of conscience facing to do. Do you agree? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:17:40 Well, I think that, that there are some things that he should face. And I'm sure there are mistakes that he has made. I think on on the one hand, he has, he has done some good things, and he has been a voice for civil rights, and he has tried to keep the issue before the forefront of the national community. On the other hand, he has done some things that that could be improvement on. But as I said, I'm not one to pass judgment, I think Congressman Powell will have to face this problem with himself. And I think that there are areas of agreement and that areas of disagreement as far as things that he has recently said. David Susskind 1:18:33 I wanted to ask you to comment on the most frequent and deepest concern of the average white person in the north, as well as the South. That all of this, apart from the morality of the Negroes strive for equal rights and equal opportunities. At the base of it lies a deep sexual concern. At the base of it lies the fear of miscegenation. I've increasingly heard supposedly enlightened northern whites say, well, the inevitability of a total integration of the racist is extensive miscegenation. Is that really any problem of size or consequence, in your view? Isn't that old wives tale? |
| 02:19:20 4761.55 |
Dr. Martin Luther King 1:19:21
Well, I think, at many points, this is a groundless fear. I always have to determine whether those who talk about this most and I hear a great deal in the sound are referring to illicit miscegenation, or whether they're referring to intermarriage on a legal basis. Now, the fact is that we have much more elicited miscegenation in the south, where there are rigid barriers of segregation than we do in the north where you have no say such barriers. And sometimes the persons who have talked the loudest about intermarriage and miscegenation have actually fathered a negro children, which means that apparently they believe in segregation by day, and desegregation by night. This has just been the fact of the situation. And from a psychological point of view, these people may be battling with a deep sense of guilt and a fear of retaliation. The fact is that in communities where you've had integration, to a degree for many years, there have been very few interracial marriages. Now, I don't think this question should be a basic one in this period, because, properly speaking individuals marry And not racist. And I have made it very clear that I don't think any state should have a law, which prohibits individuals from diff of different racial groups and marrying, I think marriages is an individual matter and in a democracy, in a free good society. This is right that that society must preserve. And I think when America rises to its full maturity, this will will not be a basic issue that is constantly brought up and constantly mentioned, as we hear it today, all over the country in general in the south in particular. And I've also said that even after making these these general statements, as I said, in my book stride toward freedom in the final analysis, the negros basic aim is to be the white man's brother and not his brother in law. And I think that has been revealed by the very events of, of contemporary history. David Susskind 1:22:07 There. There is nothing more specific by way of an overriding statistic, for example, well, there have been very few intermarriages. But it's such a basic psychological fear that it seems to me that someone should equate the white community with the fact that the negro community has as much pride of race, as Catholics have pride of religion or Jews have pride of religion, that that, that no matter what the degree of integration, isn't it likely that it would always be the exception that would result in an intermarriage? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:22:44 Yes, I don't have the statistics on it. And I don't know whether we can say that. Well, I had to put it another way, I would have to admit that if you have a thoroughly integrated society, there will be some interracial marriages. There's no doubt about that. But I do not think this will arise to great and large proportions. I think that that can be a thoroughly integrated society where you have equality of opportunity, and yet, the vast majority of Negroes will continue to marry and negros and vice versa. So that I think this is basically a groundless fear. And I always say that having to bring out the other side, that I have no opposition to interracial marriages. And I think this is a freedom that must be preserved for individuals who wish to engage in. David Susskind 1:23:49 Dr. King, what do you think of the Civil Rights Commission's recommendation that Senate President Kennedy look into the possibility for finding a way to choke off the flow of federal funds into the state of Mississippi or such other states, as may practice rampant discrimination? Prejudice? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:24:07 Well, I think this is a good recommendation. And I'm sorry that the President threw it out so soon without giving it some study. In a state where you have no redress through the courts, through other channels, I can see economics sanctions as a very powerful force that can bring about the kind of moral coercion that is desperately needed in the situation. Now, let us take Mississippi as a point that isn't a single federal judge in the state of Mississippi, who will render a decision in line with the Constitution. The United States, the Justice Department has gone into federal courts in Mississippi with exactly 18 suits, I believe, to rectify the situation that negros confront with reference to voting inequalities. They haven't even had a hearing on a single case, yet. They just refuse these judges refused to bring the cases up, they sit on them. And in a case like Mississippi, I think by withdrawing federal funds, taking these economic sanctions, it will bring about the kind of pressure that will bring the state in line, Mississippi gives I think about 32 cents. For every dollar it gets from the federal government. New York gives about $1.78. For every dollar that it gets from the federal government, it means a New York is putting Mississippi Alabama gives 38 cents for every dollar that it gets. When Connecticut gives $1 I think and 95 cents for every dollar it gets in federal government, which means that Connecticut is supporting Alabama. And I think the time has come for the federal government to engage in the kind of vigorous action that will cause states like Mississippi which refuse to do anything in line with that which is right that which is moral, and that which is constitutional. It would bring a force to bad I wouldn't call them this, I wouldn't think this drastic step would be taken in, in other states in the South that are trying to adjust to the inevitable but I'm speaking now of a state like Mississippi State like Alabama, David Susskind 1:26:59 Dr. King, there's a considerable debate raging now over whether the life of the Civil Rights Commission should be extended for another four years. In your view, has it done an effective job? And should its life be extended? |
| 02:27:11 5231.88 |
Dr. Martin Luther King 1:27:11
I think so I think it has done a very effective job. And I think it's life should definitely be extended. Although this commission has no power to act. It does have subpoena power, and it can bring out to the open into the public things that are not known and that have not been known. I think they have made some excellent studies on discrimination and housing and education in the court system. And in all of the areas where we have glaring expressions of discrimination, both north and south. And I think they have made some verifying recommendations to the President and recommendations to the legislative branch of the government. I think it's very unfortunate that the President has not seen fit. And this is true, President Kennedy and also President Eisenhower. They have not seen fit to take a stand for any of the recommendations that have been made by the Civil Rights Commission Civil Rights Commission that they appointed. David Susskind 1:28:22 Dr King, we have to pause again very briefly. We'll be right back. David Susskind 1:28:28 Dr. King, one of Paul's Zuber suggestion that the NAACP Corps, the Urban League, and the followers of yourself should merge, so as to combat the increasing force of more militant violent groups within the negro community. Dr. Martin Luther King 1:28:46 Well, I would say that these groups need to merge, I think, the most effective the most difficult, I think there are real difficulties in trying to bring all of these groups together into one group. There are problems of constitution and bylaws and all that. But I do think there is a need for these groups, these organizations to move out on a more coordinated basis. I think that is more need for unity among these organizations now than ever before. And I've always felt that even where there can't be absolute uniformity, that can be unity. I think each of these groups serves a real need. And while there may be differences in emphasis, there is an absolute unity in the goals we seek. So I think that there's a great deal that we can do on a coordinated basis, which will give a much more powerful movement and which will cause us to have a force that will be able to come back other developments that are going down a negative path or going another way. David Susskind 1:30:13 I wonder if you would comment on the Supreme Court ruling on May 27. That unwarranted delay in school desegregation will no longer be tolerated. Does this ruling implement to your satisfaction, the deliberate all deliberate speed provision? In the 1954 decision? Will it take deliberate speed to here and now, in your view? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:30:36 Well, I think this was a most significant ruling. And I think it reveals that the Supreme Court is becoming impatient with the delaying tactics and the evasive schemes that are being used by Southern states to keep from complying with the 1954 decision. And I believe this may be the kind of new course of action from the Supreme Court on this issue that will help speed up the process. Now, I think it has to be done through getting the president to see the necessity of standing up as firmly as the judicial branch of the government. But I welcome this decision. And I've said all along that these new evasive schemes that are being used can just hold us back many, many years. And it will keep us from really reaching the goal of thoroughly integrated schools by this decision, the Supreme Court makes it clear that that token integration really has nothing but a new evasive scheme with covered up with certain niceties of complexity. And I'm sure that as other decisions go up to the Supreme Court where you have these unnecessary delays, it will continue to clarify its position. David Susskind 1:32:04 Dr King earlier in this program, you commented that you thought the President not being in the country at the point of the civil rights legislation battle getting underway, was not right. Do you think would you go further and say that if the President were to absent himself during the struggle, you would consider it a dereliction of his duty to the basic civil rights struggle in this country? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:32:26 Well, I would say, I know the President has to be concerned about foreign policy and our whole stance and international relations, as well as domestic issues. But I frankly, I don't see what this particular tour will accomplish. And I don't see the need to the point of being so great, that he should leave at this time. And I think at this point, that if he leaves, he would be during a grave disservice to the nation. And to all of the people that he's representing and to the civil rights movement. I think he would, because there is no basic accomplishment that could take place now that could not take place later on. David Susskind 1:33:20 And perhaps the civil rights struggle in the Congress could not be won without him, |
| 02:33:24 5605.61 |
Dr. Martin Luther King 1:33:25
Well this is my feeling that this bill cannot get through, without the total weight of the President and his prestige behind it on almost a day to day basis, making it clear that he wants this and that the nation must have it and that it needs it. And he can do it in another country. David Susskind 1:33:48 I wonder if you'd comment, Dr. King, on a quotation of James Baldwin from his most recent book, The Fire Next Time, white people will have quite enough to do and learning how to accept and love themselves and each other. And when they have achieved this, which will not be tomorrow and may very well never be the Negro Problem will no longer exist for it will no longer be needed. He seems to be suggesting that the Negro problem in this country is a whipping boy, for the frictions of whites among themselves. Do you feel there's a philosophical truth in that? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:34:23 I think there's some truth in that. I would say that the problem stems out of a plurality of causes rather than one and I would say that this is one of the causes if one would analyze it from a psychological point of view. This is not done on a common thing in history, for one group having internal individual psychological problems to shift all of the ills and all of that disappointments and all of the blame to another The group so that the scapegoat becomes the injured party in the process. But I think that other things that must be done, I think, for instance, as economic factor, the white man had points and I'm speaking now the reactionary whites, the white man is seeking to preserve a preferred economic position. And to perpetuate a system of human values, it came into being and the slave plantation system which cannot survive in a day of democratic equalitarian ism. I think also, there's a whole question of social status, and unconscious psychological desire to feel that you are bigger than somebody else. So you find a race over here that you make inferior, and it gives a sense of bigness and status to the other group. And then along with that is the thing we discovered, as discussed earlier, the fear of intermarriage. And I think all of these things conjoined make for a very complex problem. And it means that the forces of legislation and the forces of education will have to be used in a very vigorous way to get many white people to grapple with a problem that they face as a result of the legacy of slavery and segregation with all of these economic and social overtone. I wonder David Susskind 1:36:25 if you would discuss for a moment or two, a theory or philosophy increasingly apparent in the work of Mr. Ballwin in which work I admire very much, where he feels an increasing alienation, personal alienation from white society as as a man, he says he distress the average white that even the well intentioned one and the well spoken one on serious matters. He views a cynically, he doesn't think they mean it. He's suspicious of their validity of what they say he suspicious of their intention or their ability or their wish to implement the intention with effective action. Are you equally cynical? Do you feel that there is a growing, deepening alienation between white and Negro on the personal man demand level? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:37:20 Well, I think that that is some alienation. But it's nothing new, I think it's only coming to the surface. Now, it has always been there, expressed more in paternalistic ways. In the past, and the Negro was often afraid to come out and said, I think now, he's willing to say things publicly that he didn't say privately. On the other hand, I find it difficult to generalize the world in all this all that no race is all one way and another race all the other way. And I cannot push myself to the position of seeing all white people as the same people the same way, and to see all with the same attitudes. Show that some whites that you can trust, that some who really want to do the right thing and don't do it. But I have seen many white people who are thoroughly emancipated on this issue. And just as I don't want to see in a white people generalize about negros and say that all Negroes are like this, and becoming very disappointed with Negroes who are trying to make all white people the same way that some white people who are downright prejudiced that some of them who are bad that some of them who misrepresent all of the ideals of democracy, there are some white people who have an amazing commitment to the democratic ideals, that some who have great commitment to moral principles, and that some who are as concerned about solving the race problem as negros. And so that the only point of disagreement that I would see is that of generalizing. I think that it is true that there are some we can't trust. But I can't go to the point of saying that about all. David Susskind 1:39:20 The final question, Dr. King, you have frequently said that what we want, can be told in three words all now and here. Do you think in your lifetime, you will see all now and hear in terms of equality of opportunity, equality of education and housing and employment? Dr. Martin Luther King 1:39:43 Well, I'm I'm not at all in despair at this point about the future I have faith in the future. And I believe firmly that with the many forces working together that are now working In our nation and in the world, we will be able to solve this problem the rolling tide of world opinion, the growing industrialization of the South. The the sense of conscience on the part of millions of white people over this country, and above all the new determination of the Negro himself to be free. I think with all of these things working together, we will be able in the not too distant future to gain all of our rights. I'm not going to say that it's coming tomorrow. I'm not gonna say this coming next year. But I think and between seven and 10 years, we will be able to see all over the south. A desegregated society, that is the legal barriers will be broken down. And I believe that before the turn of the century, which is less than 40 years, we will have moved a long, long way to build a thoroughly integrated society in America. David Susskind 1:40:57 Thank you. We have to pause one final time. We'll be back. David Susskind 1:41:04 Dr. King, I believe that in any period of history, there are very few great men. And I am totally convinced that an art time in the United States. You are one of our great men. It's been a real privilege and a great pleasure to talk to you tonight. Dr. Martin Luther King 1:41:20 Thank you. David Susskind 1:41:21 Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen. Our guest has been the Reverend Martin Luther King. I have found it profoundly revealing and informative. I hope you have |
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